Mercury is leftover core of a "Hot Jupiter"

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jupsmoonio

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Would like to start a discussion as to the why's and why nots to the possibility that the planet Mercury could be the remnant core of a gas giant. Many exoplanets we have discovered are gas giants in close orbit with their parent star. Could Mercury have started out as one and within a billion years or less had been "burned/blowed away" to what's left, a very dense mostly metallic core? We don't necessarily have to start out with a Jupiter size mass, and keep in mind that we have discovered many different configurations of planetary systems.....
 
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Boris_Badenov

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<font size="2">While Mercury is "close" by Earth standards, it's not anywhere as near as a "hot Jupiter" is.</font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>
 
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vogon13

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<p>&nbsp;</p><p>Seems like the amount&nbsp; volatiles detected by radar (IIRC) in the Mercurian polar regions would be more consistent with the occasional comet impact than what was leftover from the evaporation of something the size of Neptune . . .</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp; </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>
 
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3488

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'><font color="#ff0000">While Mercury is "close" by Earth standards, it's not anywhere as near as a "hot Jupiter" is. <br /> Posted by boris1961</font></DIV></p><p><strong><font size="2" color="#000000">That's very true Boris. Also if Jupiter was moved into Mercury's orbit, the solar energy would still not heat the atmosphere enough for the molecules / atoms to attain Jovian escape velocity. True Jupiter's upper atmosphere would expand & cloud patterns would change, but Jupiter on the whole would remain fairly unaffected. In fact Jupiter could be moved to about half of Mercury's distance from the Sun, with little change.&nbsp;</font></strong></p><p>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>&nbsp;<font color="#ff0000">Seems like the amount&nbsp; volatiles detected by radar (IIRC) in the Mercurian polar regions would be more consistent with the occasional comet impact than what was leftover from the evaporation of something the size of Neptune . . .&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br /> Posted by vogon13</font></DIV></p><p><font size="2"><strong>That's my take on it too Vogon. I do not think Mercury is the core of a giant planet. Mercury's surface appears to be similar to the Earth's (perhaps Venus's & Mars's mantles) & with an almost certain dual layered metal cores, perhaps an exposed mantle from a terrestrial planet, but I think looking at Mercury's now 95.7% mapped surface, to me rules that scenario out. </strong></font></p><p><font size="2"><strong>I thinls Mercury's high mass & density for an object of that size is due to Mercury forming on the inner edge of the protoplanetary disk. I do not think Mercury is an exposed anything.</strong></font></p><p><font size="2"><strong>Perhaps MESSENGER may show something to refute that, but I do not think so.&nbsp;</strong></font></p><p><font size="2"><strong>Andrew Brown.&nbsp;</strong></font></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>
 
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jupsmoonio

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<p>3488......We must not lose sight of the fact that we have had 4.5 billion years to work with. The larger planet could have started much closer to the sun and its orbit slowly migrated outward to its position today. The Solar system is much decidedly much different today than it was even just 4 billion years ago. Even if Jupiter were in Mercury's place today, how long does it take a Sol type star to finallly settle down to its present size? What of other Jupiter size planets found closely orbiting their parent stars that seem to have cometary tails? Methinks many other considerations must be taken into account. We truly have no firm idea the mechanics involved with such an event. </p><p>&nbsp;</p>
 
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silylene

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>...I thinls Mercury's high mass & density for an object of that size is due to Mercury forming on the inner edge of the protoplanetary disk. I do not think Mercury is an exposed anything.Perhaps MESSENGER may show something to refute that, but I do not think so.&nbsp;Andrew Brown.&nbsp; <br />Posted by 3488</DIV><br /><br />Hello Andrew,</p><p>If you recall, there are several journal papers which have expounded on the hypothesis that Mercury is a stripped core, caused by a mega collision early in its history.&nbsp; One of the first of these is below.&nbsp;&nbsp; I think it is interesting that Mercury and earth both might have had similar early histories, both planets believed to have been smacked by a protoplanet&nbsp; (which formed earth's moon).</p><div id="artihead" class="artihead"><strong>Icarus</strong><br />Volume 74, Issue 3, June 1988, Pages 516-528 </div><div class="articleTitle"><p><strong><font size="5">Collisional stripping of Mercury's mantle</font></strong> </p><div class="refMsg nojs" style="display:none"><br /><br />&nbsp;</div></div><div id="authorsAnchors" class="authorsNoEnt"><strong><p>Willy Benz<sup>*</sup>, Wayne L. Slattery<sup>&dagger;</sup> and A. G. W. Cameron<sup>*</sup></p></strong></div><div class="articleText" style="display:inline"><div id="authorsAnchors" class="authorsNoEnt"><p><a name="aff1"></a><sup>*</sup> Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, Harvard College Observatory, 60 Garden Street, Cambridge, Massachusetts 02138, USA</p><p><a name="aff2"></a><sup>&dagger;</sup> Los Alamos National Laboratory, Los Alamos, New Mexico 87545, USA</p></div></div><div class="articleText" style="display:inline"><br />Received 19 June 1987;&nbsp; </div><div class="articleText" style="display:inline">revised 7 October 1987.&nbsp; </div><div class="articleText" style="display:inline">Available online 26 October 2002. </div><br /><div class="articleText" style="display:inline"><h3 class="h3">Abstract</h3><p>We investigated the conditions under which a giant collision between a hypothetical proto-Mercury and a planet one-sixth its mass would result in the loss of most of the silicate mantle of the planet, leaving behind an iron-rich planet and thus explaining the anomalously high density of Mercury. We carried out a series of numerical simulations using our three-dimensional smoothed particle hydrocode, varying the impact parameter and the relative velocity between the planet and impactor. We demonstrate that the details of the equation of state do not play an important role. We show that a head-on collision at 20 km/sec and an off-axis (impact parameter equal to half the radius of proto-Mercury) collision at 35 km/sec are about equivalent as far as damage to proto-Mercury is concerned. Both collisions leave behind a remnant that has the required characteristics of the present Mercury. Whether this scenario is actually successful depends on the size of the condensates in the ejected cloud of debris. Preliminary estimates show that most of the ejected mass is probably removed from Mercury-crossing orbits. If this turns out to be true, a giant collision is a plausible explanation for the strange density of Mercury.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>++++++++++++++++</p><p>&nbsp;Also there&nbsp;are some papers which state that the&nbsp;splashed pieces of Mercury could have ended up all over the inner solar system, some of which hit earth.</p><p>http://www.astronomy.com/asy/default.aspx?c=a&id=4108</p><div class="articleHeadline"><strong><font size="5">Mercury blast splashed Earth</font></strong></div><div id="ctl00_ContentPlaceHolder_ctl00_divByline"><strong><font size="4">Computer models suggest a giant impact shattered Mercury and showered Earth and Venus with debris</font></strong></div><div><img class="imgBorder" src="http://www.astronomy.com/asy/image.ashx?img=mercury_impact.jpg&w=250" alt="Mercury impact simulation" /></div><div><span class="caption">These panels illustrate how a giant impact could have depleted Mercury&rsquo;s silicate crust and mantle (blue) while leaving behind an oversize iron core (red). Left: An object half Mercury&rsquo;s present mass collides obliquely with a 2.25-Mercury-mass protoplanet. This view shows the model 2 minutes after the impact. Center: Within 8 minutes of the collision, both worlds are shattered. Right: This wider view shows the scene 3 hours later. Much of the rocky material has been removed and little of it will return. <em>Jonathan Horner, University of Bern</em> [View Larger Image]</span></div><div></div><div><span class="caption"><span class="news-date">April 5, 2006</span> <br /><span class="dropcap">N</span>ew computer simulations of a giant impact on the young planet Mercury shed light on the planet's odd makeup. Moreover, say scientists, debris from this cosmic collision could have made its way to Earth and Venus.<br /><br />"Mercury is an unusually dense planet, which suggests that it contains far<br />more metal than would be expected for a planet of its size," says Jonathan Horner at the University of Bern, Switzerland. While Earth ranks as the solar system's densest planet, Mercury comes in a close second despite containing just 5.5 percent of Earth's mass. Results from the Mariner 10 spacecraft, which flew past the planet 3 times in the mid-1970s, explained why: Mercury possesses an iron core nearly as large as the planet itself. <br /><br />Scientists had long suspected this supersize core arose early in Mercury's history through a catastrophic collision that blasted away most of the planet's rocky crust and mantle. But, says Horner, "Until these simulations, we were not sure why so little of the planet's outer layers were reaccreted following the impact." <br /><br />Horner and his colleagues Augustin Anic, James Whitby, and Willy Benz simulated collisions between a proto-Mercury 2.25 times the planet's current mass and an impactor half of Mercury's present mass moving at 62,600 mph (100,000 km/h). The result was a dense, metal-rich body and a swath of escaping debris. "The simulations &hellip; are very promising," Horner tells <em>Astronomy</em>. "They seem to create an object very much like the Mercury we see, which is obviously a good sign for the theory." He presented the study at the Royal Astronomical Society's National Astronomy Meeting April 4.<br /><br />To follow what happened to the ejected matter, the team fed information about the debris trajectories into a second set of simulations to see how long particles drifted in space before the newly formed Mercury swept them up. The simulation tracked particles until they either landed on a planet, fell into the Sun, or traveled beyond Jupiter. <br /><br />The scientists found that half of the ejecta could take as long as 4 million years to fall back to the planet. That's sufficient time for non-gravitational forces not included in the model &mdash; such as radiation pressure from sunlight or the Poynting-Robertson effect &mdash; to alter particle orbits. Most debris in the scientists' impact scenario would never return to Mercury. <br /><br />Interestingly, some of the debris could have reached Venus and even Earth. "It really demonstrates how material spreads out after such an event," Horner says. He thinks Earth may contain as much as 17 million billion tons (16 million billion metric tons) of proto-Mercury. <br /><br />NASA's Messenger spacecraft, now en route, will be the first spacecraft to visit Mercury since Mariner 10. Messenger is scheduled to fly within 124 miles (200 kilometers) of Mercury's surface in January and October 2008 and September 2009. The probe will enter into Mercury orbit in March 2011. <br /><br />View the movie to see a simulated Mercury impact from the University of Bern group. </span></div></div> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p align="center"><font size="1">petet = <font color="#800000"><strong>silylene</strong></font></font></p><p align="center"><font size="1">Please, please give me my handle back !</font></p> </div>
 
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MeteorWayne

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Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>3488......We must not lose sight of the fact that we have had 4.5 billion years to work with. The larger planet could have started much closer to the sun and its orbit slowly migrated outward to its position today. The Solar system is much decidedly much different today than it was even just 4 billion years ago. Even if Jupiter were in Mercury's place today, how long does it take a Sol type star to finallly settle down to its present size? What of other Jupiter size planets found closely orbiting their parent stars that seem to have cometary tails? Methinks many other considerations must be taken into account. We truly have no firm idea the mechanics involved with such an event. &nbsp; <br />Posted by jupsmoonio</DIV><br /><br />It doesn't work that way. In the inner stellar system, the planet migrates inward, not outward. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>
 
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3488

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'><font color="#ff0000">Hello Andrew,If you recall, there are several journal papers which have expoun........................... <br /> Posted by petet</font></DIV><strong><font size="2"><br /></font></strong></p><p><strong><font size="2">Thanks Silylene,</font></strong></p><p><strong><font size="2">Just need reminding every now & then. Now you've jogged my memory, yes, that scenario is likely.&nbsp;</font></strong></p><p><strong><font size="2">The timing would have been pretty crucial. Any earlier, the differentiation would not had taken place.&nbsp;</font></strong></p><p><strong><font size="2">This image from the second MESSENGER encounter, appears to me to be layer over layer, over layer of solidified lava, being excavated by more recent impacts.</font></strong></p><p><font size="2"><strong>Could these deep layers be related to the incident you have reminded me about? I have already put in a request to Dr Ralph McNutt for this area to be re examined during the third pass as a dedicated observation.&nbsp;</strong></font></p><p><font size="5">Large Image Here. </font><br /> <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/13/4/9d6dc3f3-d8a3-4879-847e-b7c44de8ef47.Medium.jpg" alt="" /></p><p>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'><font color="#ff0000">It doesn't work that way. In the inner stellar system, the planet migrates inward, not outward. <br /> Posted by MeteorWayne</font></DIV></p><p><strong><font size="2">Hi Wayne, that was what I thought too. Migration was inwards, not outwards close to a star, due to the decelaraton caused by the protoplanetary disk.&nbsp; </font></strong><br /><br /><font size="2"><strong>Andrew Brown.&nbsp;</strong></font></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>
 
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UFmbutler

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<p>I think if a Jupiter mass planet migrated outward somehow, it would have disrupted the orbits of the other inner planets.&nbsp; Billions of years is a very long time, but there is no reason to believe we once had a hot jupiter.&nbsp; The exoplanet folks are even finding that hot jupiters aren't as prevalent as they once thought, since early planet searches were heavily biased toward finding them.&nbsp; </p><p>The only thing that is unusual about Mercury is its high eccentricity, but I believe the reason for that is already pretty well understood theoretically. &nbsp;</p><p>It's an interesting idea but it's hard to believe a planet could have such an extreme mass loss rate while still being in a stable orbit for billions of years especially considering it would've had to move outward, something that is very difficult, if not impossible, to justify physically. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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derekmcd

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Would like to start a discussion as to the why's and why nots to the possibility that the planet Mercury could be the remnant core of a gas giant. Many exoplanets we have discovered are gas giants in close orbit with their parent star. Could Mercury have started out as one and within a billion years or less had been "burned/blowed away" to what's left, a very dense mostly metallic core? We don't necessarily have to start out with a Jupiter size mass, and keep in mind that we have discovered many different configurations of planetary systems..... <br /> Posted by jupsmoonio</DIV></p><p>While Mercury is quite dense considering it's small size it is still less dense than Earth.&nbsp; I would think the core of a gas giant would be far more dense than mercury.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>
 
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