Moon, Mars, or Asteroid? Which is the best goal?

[oldAtlas_Eguy]

Here is a near term robotic mission that could be funded by the science side of NASA:

Put a radiation environment and radiation abatement test articles (radiation shield technologies tryouts, different materials, shapes, electronic counter measures, etc.) with a lot of instrumentation sitting out at L4 or L5 for 1 or more years away from planetary magnetic fields in order to determine effectiveness of the shields versus the weight. This satellite is not going to be lite. You may need two 20MT launches in order to get it there. It is doable and can answer some engineering questions needed for designing long term missions outside of LEO.

We know quite a lot about the radiation environment and transient events but not how an abatement technique will fare over a long period of time related to radiation dosage. This is mostly a build it and test it situation. We might be able to design something fairly light weight that will work better than the “heavy” shielding technique. But until we test we won’t know!

 

[rockett]

Here is a near term robotic mission that could be funded by the science side of NASA:

Put a radiation environment and radiation abatement test articles (radiation shield technologies tryouts, different materials, shapes, electronic counter measures, etc.) with a lot of instrumentation sitting out at L4 or L5 for 1 or more years away from planetary magnetic fields in order to determine effectiveness of the shields versus the weight. This satellite is not going to be lite. You may need two 20MT launches in order to get it there. It is doable and can answer some engineering questions needed for designing long term missions outside of LEO.

We know quite a lot about the radiation environment and transient events but not how an abatement technique will fare over a long period of time related to radiation dosage. This is mostly a build it and test it situation. We might be able to design something fairly light weight that will work better than the “heavy” shielding technique. But until we test we won’t know!

I did some checking and while there has been a LOT of testing in particle accelerators and such, there is nothing like this that has been done that I can find. GREAT IDEA for a very simple, but very important experiment!

 

[SteveCNC]

I think that's at least partly why Bigelow aerospace has the two Genesis modules in space and have been there since 2006 and 2007 . I would think though a more controlled environment would be better for testing purposes . In space you never know exactly when or how strong radiation might be at any given point , in a lab you can bombard it with as much radiation and in as short a time as you want to see the results a lot sooner .

 

[Yuri_Armstrong]

[Why Yuri, do I detect a note of paranoia? Perhaps a trace of schitzophrenia? (Yuri Gagarin_Neil Armstrong) :lol:

:lol:

But really though, if I'm selecting the crew for a Mars mission (and I can't imagine it would be more than 6 and most likely 4) I'm gonna pick engineers, pilots, geologists, and biologists. There isn't really a need for a physician or doctor, and the biologist can take care of that duty. And especially no psychologists! That is totally unnecessary because we can track their everyday actions from her eon Earth! Not to mention he would do nothing useful aside from talking about their feelings! If I'm on a Mars mission do I want to talk with the psychologist about my feelings. No. I want to get some real work done.

So yeah, no space doctors

 

[SteveCNC]

yeah can you imagine a shrink always analyzing you , it would drive you nuts :roll:

What a useless field anyway at least the ones in the HMO I was in when I was married , yeah the ex was seeing a shrink in order to justify her affair :lol: and it was costing me 50 buck a visit including pills :roll:

I think I would want an electronics expert along for sure just in case a vital electronics device takes a hit there would be far more options available . A little chewing gum here and wrap that fuse with the gum wrapper , I think we're good to go :lol:

 

[rockett]

It is important that they get along well together though, and we may want to re-think the multi-national aspect as this article points out...
Wanted For Long Space Missions: Flexible Astronaut, Works Well With Others

"Interpersonal tension will occur in any confined setting in which you have to stay for a long time – that's a normal reaction," Sandal said. "We do think that interpersonal tension and misunderstanding increases with crew heterogeneity because people from different cultures may have values that may be different or even incompatible."

http://www.space.com/missionlaunche...mulation-test-astronaut-selection-100903.html
Perhaps they should be in a "mock mission" before we send them out, to test for conflict?

 

[Yuri_Armstrong]

Isn't that the point of Mars 500?

 

[rockett]

Moon Exploration Is Not Dead, NASA Official Says
http://www.space.com/news/nasa-says-moon-exploration-not-dead-100930.html

...a little hope for us at least!

 

[SteveCNC]

I still say , once congress figures out that the prime real estate on the moon is being snatched up by other countries it will all of a sudden become a priority . It's too bad they don't read this forum You would think they would realize it already that the other nations are looking to stake their claim on the best spots there are and so have started working toward that goal as we speak . I guess we can all start speaking japanese

 

[Yuri_Armstrong]

I agree Steve. By the time we finally get to an asteroid other countries will already have their moon bases set up. We were the first ones there, we should be the first ones to return. We should not fall behind in the second heat of the space race. We've enjoyed dominance of space for the past few decades but the other countries are no longer waiting. They have the funding, they have the planning, and they are making the progress necessary to get what they need done.

Constellation had a good goal of returning to the moon, it was just going about doing it the wrong way. There's no need to change the destination here. I hope Obama did not decide to do an asteroid mission so if it does get completed it will be remembered as his legacy. I'm all for any type of deep space mission, but if it means putting off or even forgoing a moon base then I can't support it.

 

[SteveCNC]

Speaking of asteroids did you happen to catch the wording on the bill that passed ? It would seem that actually landing on the asteroid isn't the goal but a close encounter is all they are after , at least that is what I was getting from reading it . They talk about surface exploration but that does not imply actually landing , no where did I see them actually say landing on .

 

[HopDavid]

I agree Steve. By the time we finally get to an asteroid other countries will already have their moon bases set up. We were the first ones there, we should be the first ones to return. We should not fall behind in the second heat of the space race. We've enjoyed dominance of space for the past few decades but the other countries are no longer waiting. They have the funding, they have the planning, and they are making the progress necessary to get what they need done.

A very interesting book is The Next Continent by Issui Ogawa. The Next Continent is Earth's moon Luna.

I don't know if Mr. Ogawa is representative of the Asian mindset, but he seems bemused by America's preoccupation with Mars and other other destinations while they ignore the moon. In this book, the Chinese and Japanese start settling the moon. It is only later the Americans wake up and try to catch up to Asian lunar development.

In American literature, I've grown so accustomed to Americans being the most intelligent, strong and courageous heroes that I no longer notice it. It was kind of startling to read fiction where Japanese surge ahead of NASA. Although Ogawa portrays competitive rivalry as a mostly positive force he does get across the idea that success is much more likely if rivals help each other.

Ogawa has done of a lot of research on space exploration and the moon. He more science savvy than most science fiction writers. I think his book might do for the moon what Kim Stanley Robinson's trilogy did for Mars.

If we do settle the moon, I believe it would have to be a multinational effort. Although I'm American, I'm happy and excited to see the Russian, Indian, Chinese and Japanese interest in the moon.

 

[rockett]

Speaking of asteroids did you happen to catch the wording on the bill that passed ? It would seem that actually landing on the asteroid isn't the goal but a close encounter is all they are after , at least that is what I was getting from reading it . They talk about surface exploration but that does not imply actually landing , no where did I see them actually say landing on .

That's because you can actually "land" on any but the largest asteroids. The best you can do is rendezvous with the most likely (two) candidates within Obama's timeframe. In 2020 a 197-foot rock named "2009 OS5", and in 2025 "1999 AO10", a 64-foot space rock. Neither of these really have enough mass to produce a significant gravity field, so a classical "landing" just won't work.

 

[Yuri_Armstrong]

The ship could launch a tether to connect with the asteroid, and then the astronauts can use some sort of anchor to keep themselves from flying away. Or use something like the MMU to fly around the asteroid.

 

[rockett]

The ship could launch a tether to connect with the asteroid, and then the astronauts can use some sort of anchor to keep themselves from flying away. Or use something like the MMU to fly around the asteroid.

I would think they would use the MMU. That would be a more flexible approach. Also if the asteroid is tumbling, it may be a bad idea to make a physical attachment to the spacecraft...

 

[rockett]

Yet another reason to retrurn to the moon. This should at least be investigated, especially in light of China's lunar ambitions, because they presently have a de-facto monopoly on Earth.

Is Mining Rare Minerals on the Moon Vital to National Security?
http://www.space.com/news/moon-mining-rare-elements-security-101004.html

 

[SteveCNC]

I don't believe rare earths are a reason for going to the moon , the US has their own deposits of rare earths , the only reason we buy them from china from what I've read is we don't want to set up the processing plant because of the haz/mat and cost issues . We have been happy to let china deal with that all these years but now it looks as if we may have to bite the bullet and build one of our own .

 

[oldAtlas_Eguy]

I don't believe rare earths are a reason for going to the moon , the US has their own deposits of rare earths , the only reason we buy them from china from what I've read is we don't want to set up the processing plant because of the haz/mat and cost issues . We have been happy to let china deal with that all these years but now it looks as if we may have to bite the bullet and build one of our own .

REE is still usefull if only used on the Moon itself or in space. REE is used for superconducting magnets which would be used in a MagLev mass launcher and other new space technology items like VASIMR engines. REE is also used extensivly in electronics and microchip manufacturing. We might see the eventually manufacturing of high quality micro electronics all done in space where the toxic byproducts of the manufacturing processes have no environment to spoil.

A kg of unpakaged microprocessors is worth upwards of $100,000. That would definitly be a valuable enough cargo that shippment back to earth would not increase it's cost significantly. And savings during manufacturing could be had because of less environmental regulation costs offseting the increased operation and shippment costs.

 

[SteveCNC]

I understand your point , and you are right about the fact that it would be worth exploring the possibilities on the moon and it may turn out that growing silicon crystals in space or even on the moon can produce better results and even thinner layers possibly . But at some point we will have to startup a refinery here in the US as well because bringing it down here from the moon would be expensive I would think .

 

[oldAtlas_Eguy]

I understand your point , and you are right about the fact that it would be worth exploring the possibilities on the moon and it may turn out that growing silicon crystals in space or even on the moon can produce better results and even thinner layers possibly . But at some point we will have to startup a refinery here in the US as well because bringing it down here from the moon would be expensive I would think .

By the time we will be able to do sophisticated manufacturing on the Moon we will have Mass Drivers and other highly cost effective ways of transporting things to Earth. The cost of shipping to Earth would be a fraction of the cost of shipping to the Moon. This would make a wide range of materials minned on the Moon competitive with difficult to use sources on the Earth.

 

[rockett]

REE is still usefull if only used on the Moon itself or in space. REE is used for superconducting magnets which would be used in a MagLev mass launcher and other new space technology items like VASIMR engines. REE is also used extensivly in electronics and microchip manufacturing. We might see the eventually manufacturing of high quality micro electronics all done in space where the toxic byproducts of the manufacturing processes have no environment to spoil.

A kg of unpakaged microprocessors is worth upwards of $100,000. That would definitly be a valuable enough cargo that shippment back to earth would not increase it's cost significantly. And savings during manufacturing could be had because of less environmental regulation costs offseting the increased operation and shippment costs.

Maybe the beginning of an incentive would be to build the mass launcher. In the long run, refining there could be a wonderful idea. Evidently, from what I've read, REE refining is a pretty polluting and toxic business. Here are a couple of examples of what I found:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/july-dec09/china_12-14.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6946038.ece

 

[SteveCNC]

The Chinese have been talking about stopping exports on rare earths for over a year now , that's when I researched it looking for a way to capitalize on it in the stock market but the deeper I got the more I knew it would come to this before anything got done on our end . We were happy to let china deal with the waste for as long as we could but once they cut us off too prices are gonna skyrocket on things that use rare earths . Buy your hard drives now while prices are low , of course that will do one good thing for the planet , recycling will become far more profitable .

 

[rockett]

Why not set-up facilities on the moon? We could have prospecting rovers there in less than a year. The tech is nothing new. Just recycle plans for Spirit and Opportunity, tweak a little, and launch.

 

[MeteorWayne]

Why not set-up facilities on the moon? We could have prospecting rovers there in less than a year. The tech is nothing new. Just recycle plans for Spirit and Opportunity, tweak a little, and launch.

uhh, no we couldn't, since there are no such rovers designed, much less built or paid for, or the lauches manifested.

 

[bdewoody]

But my point is that we need to and this silly diversion our President has placed before NASA will delay and possibly prevent the USA from having the presence on the moon we will be needing in the future. Going to an asteroid is like climbing Mount Everest, it's a neat achievement on it's on but what good does it do. Has mankind recieved any long term benefit since Sir Edmund Hillary planted the English flag there? Is England still a dominating world power?

Another point I just thought of. A mission to Mars or an asteroid will involve just one crew of 3 or 4 and be the only thing flying for up to 3 years. On the other hand a dedicated plan to build a moon base will by necessity involve dozens or more flights with an astronaut/cosmonaut requirement of I'd say at least 100 trained people, maybe more. So if you want to be part of it which is your best bet?