Musk: $9 million to Mars?

[lampblack]

<font color="yellow">again, what does MSTF mean?</font><br /><br />I was kinda curious about that myself. The mention of a $30 billion cash reserve and the "MS" part of the acronym suggest something involving Microsoft -- but that's only a guess.<br /><br />Google very helpfully (or not) offers up this link:<br /><br />http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/MSTF <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#0000ff"><strong>Just tell the truth and let the chips fall...</strong></font> </div>

 

[radarredux]

> <i><font color="yellow">MSTF?</font>/i><br /><br />You miss typed (sp?). MSFT is the NASDAQ stock symbol for Microsoft.</i>

 

[radarredux]

> <i><font color="yellow">There`s no way of telling when or if a Mars Colony, (even if it wouldn`t be one-way) would be resupplied, revisited, etc. Hence the reason for a closed system.</font>/i><br /><br />Mars has more natural elements than the Moon does (e.g., water), so many of the resources can be extracted from the environment. Still, you wouldn't want too much leakage.</i>

 

[pathfinder_01]

"Mars has more natural elements than the Moon does (e.g., water), so many of the resources can be extracted from the environment. Still, you wouldn't want too much leakage. "<br /><br /> True for a mars coloney I can see the things being shipped being more equiment(circuit boards, hoses) than consumables...once the colony got a firm foothold. <br />

 

[JonClarke]

[Sematic quibble mode on] Mars has the same 92 natural elements as the Moon [semantic quibble mode off]<br /><br />I think you mean natural resources <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[skyone]

According to a study done by the LA Times in 2005, the US federal court system spends about $12 million on defence for each death row inmate in federal court. Housing costs run up to $90,000 per year. In the sunshine state of California, all costs included, a single execution costs $250 million. If we are able to send people to mars for $9 million a pop, can shipping our most hardened criminals off planet be justified?<br /><br />http://www.deathpenalty.org/index.php?pid=cost&menu=1"<br />

 

[JonClarke]

I don't think that such people have the skills needed for a Mars settlement!<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[spacefire]

no, but using deathrow inmates in high risk jobs here on Earth sure sounds justified <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[j05h]

> I don't think that such people have the skills needed for a Mars settlement! <br /><br />Ice miners, baby. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />Seriously, there could be a place for prisoners in settling Mars, but I wouldn't want the penal colony on my part of the planet. Dedicated, intelligent and generally peaceful colonists would be my preference. <br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

NIMBY eh? <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[j05h]

> NIMBY eh?<br /><br />Yeah, we'll be an autonomous communal farm run on a consensual basis. Oww, no, stop hitting me! (vague Monty Python reference)<br /><br />Seriously, I don't see how prison colonies will make economic sense in space in the next 100+ years. I can definitely see Musk's $9M for transit but with competent, somewhat approved individuals. As a prospective colonist, I would not be fully comfortable travelling in steerage class with a crew of convicts. It sounds like the setup for a bad movie, oh, yeah, Perfect Dark.<br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[pathfinder_01]

“Seriously, there could be a place for prisoners in settling Mars, but I wouldn't want the penal colony on my part of the planet. Dedicated, intelligent and generally peaceful colonists would be my preference.”<br /><br /><br />Well prisoners can be at least 2 of the 3...Not bad. <br /><br /> Plus I have a feeling a colony might not be the place to flex one's intellect (i.e. If you think about it too much you may get bored. Plus the only courses, books, TV shows, ect. will have to be sent over via radio wave and will likely be much limited in choice. The only entertainment will have to be made by yourself. ). Lots of hard physical work will probably be required...building buildings, tunnels, installing pipes....ect..... <br /><br />European colonist required African slaves, indentures servants, and prisoners to do a lot of their work....I can see prisoners esp. the most hated ones like sex offenders being shipped off to the moon or mars just for their labor. You might not want to send anyone with a history of violence over, but things like thief, white collar crimes, con men. The folks in minimal security can definitely be sent. <br /><br />Imagine how many people it will require to build a settlement able to hold about 200 people (the lowest number needed if you need your settlement to be genetically viable (i.e.have a low rate of genetic defects in children). Not only must they build the settlement, they must support themselves while building the settlement.<br /><br />And off the bat the settlement will need a power station, greenhouse, and a spaceport (somewhere for all those folks to land). As well as repair shops, factories, and living quarters. <br /><br />I can’t see robots doing all of the hard work for the simple fact that people are much easier to reprogram than robots and the mars environment outside of the colony lacks the controllability of a factory floor. Heck from working in factories you would be amazed about what is and is not automated<br />

 

[JonClarke]

Except you will want people who have high levels of emotional intelligence, integrity, and committment, or prone to anti-social behaviour or additions. Not the sort of people who are commonly criminals of any sort.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[qso1]

It wouldn't suprise me to see penal colonies at extremely remote locations in space such as asteroids or areas of planets remote enough. The idea being that escape from such places would be virtually impossible. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[no_way]

>MSTF? <br /><br />Yeah sorry, i made a typo, i meant Microsoft ( MSFT )

 

[JonClarke]

What the point? The whole idea of convict settlements in space is at best silly and at worst shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what is required for space settlement.<br /><br />Firstly is is based on a false historical parallel. Convicts were used to help establish terrestrial settlements as cheap labour. This was in a pre-industrial era. We have since had two industrial revolutions, mechanisation and information technology. There is simply no need for convicts in space.<br /><br />Secondly, it is based on a complete lack of appreciation of the skills required for Mars settlements. Those going will need skills in geology, meteorology, geophysics, geochemistry, mining geology, metallurgy, materials science, hydroponics, medical technology general surgery, space medicine, nursing, physiotherapy, midwifery, nursing, solar technology, nuclear engineering, sanitation, waste disposal, propulsion, automotive engineering, civil engineering, aquaculture.... the list goes on. How many convicts have these skills?<br /><br />Thirdly, it underestimates the type of character needed for such an understaking. Being skillful, intelligent, experienced and highly educated will not be sufficient. So far from earth and dependent utterly on the function of complex, interdepent technologies and the people required to run them, you will need people who are brave, compassionate, moral, ethical, empathetic, and utterly trustworthy. How many convicts meet these requirements?<br /><br />Fourthly, with a whole planet of volunteers to chose from, why send people who don't want to go?<br /><br />Convict settlement of Mars is SF and bad SF at that. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[qso1]

JonClarke:<br />What the point? The whole idea of convict settlements in space is at best silly and at worst shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what is required for space settlement.<br /><br />Me:<br />I did say it wouldn't suprise me, not that it would happen and mentioned asteroids as opposed to mars.<br /><br />Silly today, but what about fifty or a hundred years out. Even if it is a flawed idea, will that stop politicians from invoking a feel good factor based on convicts in remote locales? The requirements for settlements are not yet actually fully known and won't be till we start actually settling. Right now one could argue that if we use the NASA taxpayer approach, it will always be too expensive to colonize Mars or any place in the solar system.<br /><br />JonClarke:<br />Firstly is is based on a false historical parallel. Convicts were used to help establish terrestrial settlements as cheap labour.<br /><br />Me:<br />From someone else, true perhaps. I was not advocating the prisoners be utilized in any way. Simply saying the worst could be removed from society because if such facilities could exist, the politicians would have a much easier time of it when talking about crime issues.<br /><br />I should point out also, Mars is not the place I had in mind. I was thinking more along the lines of an asteroid penal colony which may not even be that large but that shouldn't matter because once again. I'm talking a future that may or may not occur and if it does, will occur under economical and technological conditions almost unrecognizable today.<br /><br />A commercial space infrastructure and population growth, including prison population 50-100 years from now might make prisons in space more economical.<br /><br />JonClarke:<br />Secondly, it is based on a complete lack of appreciation of the skills required for Mars settlements. Those going will need skills in geology,<br /><br />Me:<br />Sounds like you want a seat, your a geologist right?<br /><br />Seriously, again, Mars w <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[j05h]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p> Well prisoners can be at least 2 of the 3...Not bad.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Prisoners in general are going to lack the skills neccessary to build colonies. My "ice miners" joke was just that, a joke. I doubt thieves and white collar criminals are going to have the work ethic to compete on Mars. As for jails in Martian settlements, that is so far out that settlers will be the ones making those decisions. In the first several decades it will, IMHO, be a group decision, mostly involving single individuals and airlocks. "Now, John, explain how he died or we depress the airlock." <br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Plus I have a feeling a colony might not be the place to flex one's intellect (i.e. If you think about it too much you may get bored. Plus the only courses, books, TV shows, ect. will have to be sent over via radio wave and will likely be much limited in choice. The only entertainment will have to be made by yourself. ). Lots of hard physical work will probably be required...building buildings, tunnels, installing pipes....ect.....<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Ever heard of the Internet and communications satellites? Martian settlers will only be limited by available bandwidth. Settlers might know more about what's happening on Earth than in the next canyon over. <br /><br />I think a lot of the initial labor for Mars colonies will be the mix of human and machine labor we discuss endlessly here. I don't think prisoners, in the penal-colony sense, will be a part of that. <br /><br />On Biosphere2, I have a 2 year old WIRED in the reading stack that I was flipping through, and found an article called 10 Lessons from Biosphere2. Some of it we covered already, others are interesting points, check it out:<br /><br />http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.12/biosphere<br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[lampblack]

<font color="yellow">European colonist required African slaves, indentures servants, and prisoners to do a lot of their work....I can see prisoners esp. the most hated ones like sex offenders being shipped off to the moon or mars just for their labor. You might not want to send anyone with a history of violence over, but things like thief, white collar crimes, con men. The folks in minimal security can definitely be sent.</font><br /><br />Of course, that sort of begs the question: how do you handle 'em once their sentences are complete? Seems unlikely any government would want to ship a boatload of folks off to the moon or Mars -- only to have to haul 'em back once they've "paid their debt to society."<br /><br />Sounds like a pricy way to run a prison system. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#0000ff"><strong>Just tell the truth and let the chips fall...</strong></font> </div>

 

[pathfinder_01]

If you don’t think that criminals can be hardworking or intelligent then you have never seen drug dealers at work. Or the folks at Enron, or Hackers. Those guys put in more than an eight hour day. Lots of crooks put lots of time in their illegal activities. It is just that their criminal activity does not benefit society. <br /><br />Now I don’t see all colonies being prison ones, but yeah I can see prison labor being used even in our free economy there still are chain gains. The only real problem is peaceful (i.e. violence) which can be curved by having the guards out gun them and by screening out the more violent ones and by the simple fact that you are totally in control of the environment. Escape would be impossible. It could defiantly work. <br /><br />As for returning them to earth, well they might not have to return with all those three strikes your out type laws and you might not need to worry about returning them for 10-15 years. <br /><br />“Ever heard of the Internet and communications satellites? Martian settlers will only be limited by available bandwidth”<br /><br />There are two problems with communication. One is the speed the other is the amount of data (i.e. Broadband). A broadband modem doesn’t send electrons down a copper wire any faster than a 56k or even 2400 baud modem. It just receives more data in the same amount of time by making better use of the transmission medium (i.e. the copper wire). <br /><br />You can not send data from earth any faster than the speed of light and at the speed of light. It can take 15-20 mins. for a one way trip between earth and mars at the speed of light. So you click on a link and a web server on earth will not get the message that you wish to see the next webpage for 15 mins. It then will take another 15-20 mins for the webpage you requested to be sent to mars. For a total of around 30-40 mins for the webpage to load. It doesn’t matter the amount of data but it will take at least 30-40 mins to get there if you are u

 

[nyarlathotep]

"Using communication satellites might increase the lag time thou since the distance traveled may no longer be the shortest distance to earth."<br /><br />Yeah, like an extra ten thousand kilometers is going to matter.

 

[JonClarke]

Good point about just because something is a bad idea does not mean to say that politicians won't think of it!<br /><br />But the cost of sending people off the planet is so high that it will be cheaper to incarcerate people here. With a few exceptions to get rid of extrene trouble makers, political or otherwise, and some limited use of transporation as deterrence for some crimes (e.g. Devil's Island), most transportation occurred to solve manual labour shortages in the colony. These won't exist in space. <br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[j05h]

> If you want the internet you are going to have to cache it locally otherwise the delays will be interminable.<br /><br />You have heard of Akamai servers, correct? By the time we're ready to have cache-and-forward data for Mars efforts, you'll be able to squeeze petabytes of harddrive storage and a mainboard into something the size of a shoebox. This isn't an issue, except for protocol issues, and those are being actively worked on. Inflatable antennae or laser-based comm will alleviate bandwidth problems. <br /><br />As a Mars-bound user, you wouldn't click on a link and wait 30 minutes. You'd set up RSS-type feeds and bots on Earth to gather and forward information of interest, then read it off the local cache at your leisure. The same way that conversations with colleagues on Earth will be more like extended voice-mail sessions than real conversations. This is all re-hashing non-issues that people figured out a generation ago. <br /><br />Mars-based comsats would provide hold-and-forward capability alongside GPS and any science payloads. They make a ton of sense once there are people planetside and might make sense for widespread robotic efforts.<br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

I think this is all fascinating. Too much gets made of the time delay. After all, the time lag is less than discussing something on a fora with people on the other side of the world.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[j05h]

I think the time delay is a non-issue. If anything, it would allow explorers and builders to actually get some work done on the surface. Imagine a day at the office (so to speak) that didn't involve any phone calls or meetings? Yippy! <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <br /><br />Communication would be very much like forum posting. To turn this inside out, imagine being able to ask an explorer to revisit an area or crack open a certain rock. Much more feedback than with the rovers. Once there are many people living on Mars, there will be a certain level of internal/planetside communication that generates into it's own info-economy. This cancels the "day without calls", however. <br /><br />Josh<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>