NASA Briefing: Current Water on Mars?

[JonClarke]

<i>The old adage is that extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. </i><br /><br />True, but there is an extraordinary amount of evidence episodic flow water flow on Mars, past and present , that the claim is no longer extraordinary.<br /><br />It is the claims that all sorts of extreme and unlikely fluids - SO2, CO2 - could generate these features that are extraordinary.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Thanks Varsha! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[brellis]

can HiRise snap pics in quick enough succession to show realtime flow? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><em><strong>I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better.</strong></em></font> </p> </div>

 

[robnissen]

"mars only has a "couple of water flows planetwide every decade"? and has "always had" a low level of activity? --the entire planet has not been observed! orbital camera platforms currently cannot possibly reveal every nuance of martian geology and erosion that happens over a recorded time."<br /><br />I completely agree with you on this. My point was not that Mars has always had a low level activity (albeit that was my post), but that it always has had AT LEAST a low level of activity and that it is HIGHLY unlikely that it is only now awakening from a slumber.<br /><br />I agree that with further investigation we may find that Mars has MUCH more activity that we had imagined, but at the very least, it has always had some activity.

 

[bonzelite]

right, agreed. <br /><br />mars is being captured in it's current state as it's been operating for perhaps centuries. we're just arriving to the party.

 

[gunsandrockets]

"However, the authors seem to suggest that the water would boil. In any event, it will readily evaporate. But being trapped in mud may forestall complete evaporation."<br /><br />On evaporation -- I can't remember where I saw it and I'm trying to find it again, but I do remember reading a paper that mentioned water evaporation on Mars. Supposedly the low Martian surface temperature reduces the rate of evaporation by an order of magnitude. Interesting.

 

[JonClarke]

Jennifer has several papers on the subject of Martian gullies. <br /><br />http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2004Icar..168..285H<br /><br />This abstract is more useful, and points out that water and can flow below its freezing temperature http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2001DPS....33.4802H<br /><br />The main paper I remember her presenting was at a Mars Society Australia conference in 2004.<br /><br />Jon<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

<i>The extraordinary claim is of very recent water. </i><br /><br />Given the abundant evidence for recent flows in the gullies, I would argue this is not an extraordinary claim. It is no more suprising to see evidence of flow during the period of observation that it is to see evidence of mass movement or aeolian activity.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

this thread is extremely interesting. a sort of turning point --a <i>watershed</i> event! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <br /><br />

 

[JonClarke]

It's very <i>current</i> topic, if you get my <i>drift</i> <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[Mee_n_Mac]

I've been folllowing this thread when I can and find it very interesting. Many thanks to those who've kept the SNR high. I can't add much but a thought occured to me so I thought I'd toss it out. I apologize if it's already been mentioned. To what exent would "skinning" occur and might this mitigate the temperture loss and/or evaporation problems ? By skinning I'm thinking of how lava is transported here over great distances through tubes. Not sure if or how such things would form on Mars with water, or other potential liquids, or how the roof would then evaporate to leave visible the trails seen. Just thought I'd toss out a wild idea FWIW.<br /><br />ps - Oh man, with these puns it's feeling very "Free Space" in here. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>-----------------------------------------------------</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, <strong>STOP</strong> !</font></p> </div>

 

[brellis]

<i>Water</i> you all talking about? <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><em><strong>I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better.</strong></em></font> </p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Water certainly does <i>spring</i> to mind <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[Mee_n_Mac]

<i>Well</i> if we're going to know for sure I think we need to have a movie cam setup to monitor a likely gully. You know, get real-time <i>streaming</i> video. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>-----------------------------------------------------</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, <strong>STOP</strong> !</font></p> </div>

 

[brellis]

ehh, you're just <i>fishing</i> for a laugh there... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><em><strong>I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better.</strong></em></font> </p> </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">"As long as we are onto water humor..."</font><br /><br />I think some here have gone off the deep end. <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[bobw]

I enjoy reading your posts. They are usually pretty over my head so I don't reply but I CAN grasp at straws <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />9.1th speculation: Melting causes a partial vacuum because liquid water takes up less volume than solid. The vacuum causes sublimation in addition to the thermal melting, more liquid more vacuum, a positive feedback loop. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

The springs studied by Jennifer Heldmann and Fathi Karouia on the Mars Society's Expedition 2 to Arkaroola wre the Paralana spring system. These are hot radioactive springs (>70 degrees, with dissolved radium and radon) so they aren't going to freeze ovcer. It can get quite cold at Arkaroola in winter (-6, but this is not enough for ordinary springs to feeze over. It's a great place though to study Mars analogues, especially the artesian springs further north.<br /><br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[thor06]

Kudos to this community!<br /> This could open the <font color="blue"> floodgates </font>to mars research (couldn't resist). <br /><br /> Pardon if this has already been said, but at the breifing they talked about acidic h20 as a possibility for liquidity at such low temps....<br />lol..I have a clip of the scientists at the breifing laughing at the one gentlemans comments on the "damn" water. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p> <font color="#0000ff">                           www.watchnasatv.com</font></p><p>                          ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </p> </div>

 

[brellis]

This thread has a nice <i>flow</i> to it <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /><br /><br />Many serious thanks to those laying out their thought processes here. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><em><strong>I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better.</strong></em></font> </p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

borman, you're just <i>gushing</i> with a <i>tide</i> of information.

 

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">"...one gentlemans comments on the 'damn' water."</font><br /><br />He was talking about a theory which has groundwater building up behind a frozen plug of ice, an ice dam, before bursting through to the surface. He refered to the "dam ice" forming the plug, got flustered and explained that he meant the "dam ice", not "damn ice". <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

thank you, borman. your bottomless pit of information is great to chew on for a while. <br /><br />i'm <i>awash</i> in gratitude <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[brellis]

Bonz, that was a nice <i>tributary</i> to borman.<br /><br />Before I <i>sink</i> this discussion much further, back to the topic:<br /><br />Is it possible for the general public to access the 240,000 MOC pics? Perhaps they reveal changes compared with Viking Orbiter Images. I notice that Google Mars has many Viking Images in its b/w setting. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><em><strong>I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better.</strong></em></font> </p> </div>

 

[thebigcat]

I just wish to thank <b>borman</b> for his <i>fluid</i>, <i>dynamic</i> post. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>