New interpretation of QM, with new two-phase cosmology, solves 15 foundational problems in one go.

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If so, why do you have a problem with answering the question about the superposition of your paralyzed face and the absorbed photons?
I didn't even understand that question. Everything physical is in a superposition until it arrives in consciousness.

I am not sure how I can be any clearer than that. "Everything" includes everything from the Andromeda Galaxy to your own brain, and all possible experimental apparatus of any type.
 

marcin

You're a madman I've come to the right place, then
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If so, why do you have a problem with answering the question about the superposition of your paralyzed face and the absorbed photons? You're not conscious of their heat on your face, so they shouldn't collapse on your face, right?
 
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That's your sentence. I was asking only about my part of this sentence. Where is my assumption about the causal isolation from the sun in my question, whether you think that your face is in a superposition with the absorbed photons?
Everything is in a superposition until it causally affects consciousness.
 
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If so, why do you have a problem with answering the question about the superposition of your paralyzed face and the absorbed photons? You're not conscious of their heat on your face, so they shouldn't collapse on your face, right?
I don't know what "collapse on your face" means, so I cannot answer the question. That is why I am instead making a statement which cannot be misunderstood: everything is in a superposition until it is registered in consciousness, including the sun, the photons and your face.

Why do you keep asking me meaningless questions?

By "collapse on your face", do you mean "physically interact with your face"? "Are absorbed by your face"?

We cannot make sense of this until we go back to the discussion about 2PC and time: nothing "happens" in phase 1 reality, because time doesn't exist as anything other than a dimension of an information structure.
 

marcin

You're a madman I've come to the right place, then
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I don't know what "collapse on your face" means, so I cannot answer the question. That is why I am instead making a statement which cannot be misunderstood: everything is in a superposition until it is registered in consciousness, including the sun, the photons and your face.

Why do you keep asking me meaningless questions?
You don't know what a "collapse on your face" means, but you know perfectly well what was the collapse of the primordial wave function. Give me a break.
 
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You don't know what a "collapse on your face" means, but you know perfectly well what was the collapse of the primordial wave function. Give me a break.
The primordial wave function collapsed when the first animal became conscious. Not when anything happened to its skin. Its unconscious ancestors already had skin, and they "inhabited" a reality where no wave functions collapsed.

What do you think "collapse on your face" means in MWI?
 

marcin

You're a madman I've come to the right place, then
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The primordial wave function collapsed when the first animal became conscious. Not when anything happened to its skin. Its unconscious ancestors already had skin, and they "inhabited" a reality where no wave functions collapsed.
It's consciousness was totally related with all its sensory input, so that's exactly like feeling the heat on your face.
 
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This discussion is pointless, Marcin. All you are doing is refusing to engage with 2PC -- you tried for a while, but now you have stopped. All of your current posts are just trying to drag the argument back into your existing materialistic, physical-collapse framework of thinking. You are trying to bring it back on to territory where you think you can win, but in doing so you are simply ignoring 2PC. You're trying to make it look like you are debunking 2PC, when in fact you are just trying to defend your existing belief system, which has nothing all to do with 2PC. Everything you are posting is irrelevant.
 
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It's consciousness was totally related with all its sensory input, so that's exactly like feeling the heat on your face.

No!

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what 2PC is and what consciousness is. LUCAS's immediate ancestors had sensory input. Comb jellies and jellyfish have sensory input today. But these organisms weren't and aren't conscious. They do not "feel" anything at all. What made LUCAS different was not the sensory input, but the complexity of its information processing.
 

marcin

You're a madman I've come to the right place, then
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No!

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what 2PC is and what consciousness is. LUCAS's immediate ancestors had sensory input. Comb jellies and jellyfish have sensory input today. But these organisms weren't and aren't conscious. They do not "feel" anything at all. What made LUCAS different was not the sensory input, but the complexity of its information processing.
If you're telling me that it didn't receive any stimuli from the environment, then I don't believe you. Are you saying it?
 
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I don't think about MWI at all.
Then you need to start doing so.

In MWI, does it make sense to talk about photons collapsing on your face?


I know that the absorbtion of the photon requires the UPDATE of the wave function and recalcutation of its evolution.
Ah-ha! Now we have made some progress. Yes, when photons interact with a face then the wave function changes with respect to time. HOWEVER, in phase 1 of 2PC there is no such thing as time as we normally understand it -- nothing is "updated", because nothing can change. It exists outside of time, until the wavefunction collapses. In other words, in phase 1 we can think of time going backwards or forwards and it makes no difference. We could just as easily say that the wavefunction is updated when the photon leaves your face and heads towards the sun.

Do you understand?
 
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If you're telling me that it didn't receive any stimuli from the environment, then I don't believe you. Are you saying it?
I don't understand the question. Let's talk about comb jellies. Do they "receive stimuli from the environment"? Yes. Are they conscious? No. They do not cross the QCT. They do not "think". They just sense, and respond. They have nervous systems, but no brains.

If you don't know what a comb jelly is, watch this (and no they aren't jellyfish):
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwS2_5TPfUE

Until I came across QCT I was undecided about whether these creatures are conscious or not. QCT conclusively says they aren't, but Ikaria probably was and the early Cambrian creatures certainly were.
 

marcin

You're a madman I've come to the right place, then
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I don't understand the question. Let's talk about comb jellies. Do they "receive stimuli from the environment"? Yes. Are they conscious? No. They do not cross the QCT. They do not "think". They just sense, and respond. They have nervous systems, but no brains.
And why do you think that its nervous system is not enough to cross QCT? Did Greg calculate it?

You think that LUCAS was thinking because it had a brain, but it wasn't self-conscious. What could it "consciously observe", what was it aware of, what were the informations that it processed?
 
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And why do you think that its nervous system is not enough to cross QCT? Did Greg calculate it?
It doesn't have a "central processing unit". It can't make decisions, because it doesn't have sufficient neural complexity to make internal models of the future and compare different potential responses. I don't need calculations for that -- I just need the principle. What Greg has done is provide that principle -- he made me realise that consciousness is directly related to the frame problem.

I don't actually need his specific form of QCT -- I just need something that fills the same gap and makes the same basic claim. In other words I just need there to be a threshold of that sort. To be clear -- if I actually wanted to use QCT in a scientific or technological sense, or to empirically test it, then I'd need those calculations. But for my philosophical purposes, all I need is the principle. Before QCT the best suggestion I had to work with was Penrose/Hameroff, but microtubules aren't specific enough to the comb jelly / Ikaria grey area. QCT can very plausibly apply to Ikaria but not to comb jellies.

You think that LUCAS was thinking because it had a brain, but it wasn't self-conscious. What could it "consciously observe" and what was it aware of?
That is a bit like asking what it is like to be a bat. I can't answer that. All I am saying is that there was something like it was to be Ikaria, and it probably isn't all that different to what it is like to be a simple sort of worm now.

The evolution informed answer is that it was almost certainly aware only of the things it needed to survive, which at the time was mainly to do with finding food and reproducing. How it did that is a matter of pure guesswork.
 

marcin

You're a madman I've come to the right place, then
Jul 18, 2024
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Ah-ha! Now we have made some progress. Yes, when photons interact with a face then the wave function changes with respect to time. HOWEVER, in phase 1 of 2PC there is no such thing as time as we normally understand it -- nothing is "updated", because nothing can change. It exists outside of time, until the wavefunction collapses. In other words, in phase 1 we can think of time going backwards or forwards and it makes no difference. We could just as easily say that the wavefunction is updated when the photon leaves your face and heads towards the sun.

Do you understand?
You can't have a potential history of LUCAS without the sequence of all the potential events which led to its formation, with all the potential physics, chemistry, and biology that may have formed LUCAS. To have this potential process, you need an almost infinite number of the wave functions collapses.
 
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You can't have a potential history of LUCAS without the sequence of all the potential events which led to its formation, with all the potential physics, chemistry, and biology that may have formed LUCAS. To have this potential process, you need an almost infinite number of the wave functions collapses.
There is no such thing as "almost infinite". There are certainly a lot of them. But nothing like as many as are required by MWI.

Why should this be a problem? Reality is not like a computer. It does not have limits on memory space.
 

marcin

You're a madman I've come to the right place, then
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LUCAS couldn't be formed without the interaction of matter which created it. Every interaction is the update of the wave function.
 
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So it can't make decisions about future actions. To be able to make such a decision you need to be able to model the world, model the future, and model yourself within it. That needs a definable amount of processing power, not just sensory equipment hardwired to muscles to create reflexes. There are two fundamentally different functions here, both of which are strongly associated with animal nervous systems, and yet they remain fundamentally distinct.

The simplest IF - ELSE statement in the simplest algorithm is making the decision.
Not quite. "If else" decisions can be hard wired. They don't require modeling. So in the QCT sense, these don't count as decisions at all. They are just decision-free causal chains.

Think of it in terms of the frame problem. We could build a robot which mimics the sort of behaviour we see in comb jellies without any risk of it running into the frame problem. Why? Because the required programming is extremely simple -- it is nothing more than a glorified set of "if else" rules, of the sort that used to be modelled by cognitive scientists back in the 1990s. Making decisions based on the construction of models of the external world involves a completely different sort of information processing.
 

marcin

You're a madman I've come to the right place, then
Jul 18, 2024
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You didn't get it. Every update of the wave function is exactly like its collapse.
 

marcin

You're a madman I've come to the right place, then
Jul 18, 2024
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So it can't make decisions about future actions. To be able to make such a decision you need to be able to model the world, model the future, and model yourself within it. That needs a definable amount of processing power, not just sensory equipment hardwired to muscles to create reflexes. There are two fundamentally different functions here, both of which are strongly associated with animal nervous systems, and yet they remain fundamentally distinct.

Not quite. "If else" decisions can be hard wired. They don't require modeling. So in the QCT sense, these don't count as decisions at all. They are just decision-free causal chains.

Think of it in terms of the frame problem. We could build a robot which mimics the sort of behaviour we see in comb jellies without any risk of it running into the frame problem. Why? Because the required programming is extremely simple -- it is nothing more than a glorified set of "if else" rules, of the sort that used to be modelled by cognitive scientists back in the 1990s. Making decisions based on the construction of models of the external world involves a completely different sort of information processing.
Are you sure that ikaria wariootia developed a model of the external world?
 
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You didn't get it. Every update of the wave function is exactly like its collapse.
I have no idea what you mean. I meant exactly what I said.

You really need to think about MWI. There is no collapse in MWI.

Have you actually never even thought about the implications of this??
 

marcin

You're a madman I've come to the right place, then
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I did, but you disgusted me so much regarding the MWI, that I'll dislike it for some time.

Every branch in MWI is made of its own sequence of collapses with their specific outcomes. MWI is based on them just like our single branch.
 
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