New T-Space Updates

[tap_sa]

Anyway grooble may be right about the feasibility of the idea. 747 wasn't designed to have open belly or bomb bay doors so cutting a hole there might wreak havoc to structural stress limits etc. Oh well it was just a quick thought. And if just extending the landing gear works it ought be much simpler (and cheaper!) procedure. 747 Long Feet, can land even if airstrip is covered with five meters of water <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[gofer]

Not the cross range, thanks for pointing that out, but the aerodynamic lifting force. I don't see how the CXV will provide any as its bottom is the worst lifting surface I've ever seen (perfectly spherical, just like the Corona capsules) We are talking HIGH Gs, and HIGH thermal loads all at once.

 

[tap_sa]

<font color="yellow">"I don't see how the CXV will provide any [lift]"</font><br /><br />Like all capsules, by flying with some angle of attack instead of straight head-on. AFAIK at high altitude re-entry hypersonic speeds all conventional terrestial aerodynamic rules are replaced by something that can be modelled by individual air molecules being deflected by tilted surfaces. So, have something that's not at 90 degree angle to the velocity vector and you got a force pushing you sideways, up or down.

 

[grooble]

Sure have stilts and an undercarriage if that works. I was just wondering about whether it could take off easy with the extra weight, and wouldn't the landing gear bays need altering to take in the larger gear?<br /><br />Maybe it'd be easier in the end just to build a specialised vehicle than to purchase and refit a 747.

 

[nacnud]

Don't retract the gear, just put an areodynamic shroud around it. <br /><br />I don't know whether a retro fix or a new vehicle is cheaper, and nether does t/space by the sound of it.

 

[tap_sa]

A-380 going gold soon might mean there will be increased amount of used 747s for sale ... at cheaper price than usual?

 

[nacnud]

I think virgin might be able to help with a 747 <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />, from wired<br /><br /><font color="yellow">One lightly frozen billionaire has just climbed down from the port wing of a Virgin Atlantic 747 parked at the edge of a runway at Mojave Airport. It's a blustery gray morning in California's southern desert, and Virgin in chief Richard Branson has spent more than an hour standing in the wind, waiting to tape the opening sequence of his new reality show, <i>Rebel Billionaire</i>. The jet's not going anywhere, either: It's a mothballed reserve plane, prettied up just for the shoot. "We've been thinking about sinking her in the Caribbean for divers," says Branson, deep-sixing hot cocoa from a styrofoam cup. </font><br />

 

[holmec]

nice plane design <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[grooble]

This is interesting. If it costs $20m, does that mean an orbital flight will cost roughly $3-5m per passenger, if this was used for tourism?<br /><br /><br />Ya know that isn't so bad really is it, considering the space tourism industry is just starting out.<br />

 

[nacnud]

More interestingly I wonder how many <b>countries</b> would pay that to have an instant manned space program? <br /><br />I’m sure ESA would be interested, maybe Brazil as well. It’s beginning to sound like a chapter out of The Rocket Company, as long as t/space can get round the daft ITAR and other export regulations that is.<br />

 

[grooble]

Yeah i was thinking that. You could sell a country a manned orbital space capability for like $1 billion. The gov will want a decent cut for exporting such technology, if they'd even allow it.

 

[tap_sa]

ESA, Brazil, Japan, India, Israel ... if selling fighters to Pakistan is OK I guess spacecrafts to these "friendly nations" too. But IMO the possible action in private sector is more interesting. Selling these crafts to other countries means just another smaller NASAs out there (which is good, no problem there) but first private businesses doing manned spaceflights, that's something completely new. Maybe in 10-15 years NASA, ESA and such will buy 'mundane' LEO-trips for their astronauts wholly from private sector.<br />

 

[grooble]

Pretty increible really isn't it. Maybe they will go for bigelows space prize? That'd be a cool $50m to bank.

 

[tap_sa]

They have already recieved money from NASA, I guess that rules out ASP participation. ASP rule #9:<br /><br /><i>9. The Competitor must not accept or utilize Government development funding related to this Contest of any kind, nor shall there be any Government development funding related to this Contest of any kind, nor shall there be any Government ownership of the Competitor. Using Government test and launch facilities shall be permitted</i> <br /><br />But then again maybe Rutan, Bigelow & co go to a fishing trip to find a common tune, and when they return the rules have been adjusted to allow t/Space entry <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[grooble]

Do you think they accept public donations?<br /><br />I wouldn't mind contributing as i believe they can pull off a worthy goal.

 

[tap_sa]

I have no idea, but would guess 'no' based on assumption that possible money recieved from these donations would be offset by costs of setting up all the legalities, accounting etc allowing accepting them. If we would be talking about investing seven or more digit figures (pound sterling, euros, dollars .. not yens!) then they'd probably raise an eyebrow <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[grooble]

What do you think a moon mission will cost, once all the hardware is developed and in place?<br /><br />So say, the 2nd new moon mission and on?<br /><br />Under a $100 million? $20m for the orbital part, and $80m from orbit to the moon?<br /><br />Or less, more?<br /><br />Apollo Mission costs in millions<br /><br /> -----------Year--($M)--(94$M)<br /><br />Apollo 7 1968 $145 $575<br />Apollo 8 1968 $310 $1230<br />Apollo 9 1969 $340 $1303<br />Apollo 10 1969 $350 $1341<br />Apollo 11 1969 $355 $1360<br />Apollo 12 1970 $375 $1389<br />Apollo 13 1970 $375 $1389<br />Apollo 14 1971 $400 $1421<br />Apollo 15 1971 $445 $1581<br />Apollo 16 1972 $445 $1519<br />Apollo 17 1972 $450 $1536<br />

 

[tap_sa]

A <i>lot</i> more than $100M. Actual figure depends on what sort of mission you are talking about. t/Space CER report suggests a flotilla of two CEVs, and each CEV needs a refuelling from tankerCEV. Two-CEV moon expedition's propellant costs alone (~170t delivered from earth to LEO) would be nearly $500M, using (still non-existing) $2800/kg Falcon V price. Add to that the r&d + launch costs of three different type of ships CXV, CEV and tankerCEV (and fourth if there's tanker CXV and fifth if cargoCEV!) and it will require a lot of wishful thinking to squeeze the price tag of initial moon missions below $1B. OTOH for that one billion there would 8-12 persons exploring at least a month on the Moon, so you will get a lot more bang for your buck than in the 60s.

 

[grooble]

So if it used the entire shuttle budget, how many missions would that be a year, 3 or 4? <br /><br />

 

[tap_sa]

NASA FY 2006 budget, you do the math <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> Needless to say, I'd change the few annual shuttle flights into lunar missions in a heart beat. If the $20M/flight CXV gets realized, it could be used to do the ISS crew rotation with pocket money. Or bite the bullet and pay russians to do it.

 

[grooble]

5 or 6 missions a year then. Excellent. I think this time there will be a lot of digital media for the public to see, treks across the moon, geology and engineering programs. Imagine this stuff on the discovery channel??

 

[radarredux]

> <i><font color="yellow">More interestingly I wonder how many countries would pay that to have an instant manned space program?</font>/i><br /><br />Ding ding ding ding ding... And we have a winner.<br /><br /><b>Model 1</b> Buy time-share in a Bigelow orbital facility and buy a ticket for a t/Space launch 1-2 times a year to the orbital facility.<br /><br /><b>Model 2</b> Buy your own Bigelow orbital facility and buy a ticket for t/Space launches 2-4 times a year.<br /><br /><b>Model 3</b> Buy your own Bigelow orbital facility and buy your own t/Space launch system to launch whenever you want.<br /><br /><b>Model 4</b> Buy a time-share in a Bigelow Lunar facility, buy a launch ticket on a t/Space CXV to LEO, and buy a delivery ticket from [TBD] to move you from LEO to the Lunar surface.<br /><br /><b>Model 5-7</b> As in model's 2 & 3, buy ownership (not just time-share or tickets) of capabilities to reach and operate on the Moon.</i>

 

[strandedonearth]

It's all about having the right tools. Not sure exactly when this was, but Scaled Composites bought a new (larger) CNC Milling machine about a year or two ago which lets them design a shape on a computer, then send it to the CNC machine to carve out the piece or the molds for it in next to no time. This is how they can rapid-prototype so quickly and cheaply. Now if only it were big enough to mill out a Saturn 5...

 

[gofer]

I didn't see this posted, but they already have a full-scale mock-up! It looks quite roomy inside. http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/2005/05/tspace_model_at.html#more

 

[gladiator1332]

Wow they are really pushing ahead. I still can't get over the fact that for $3 million they were able to do all of this. <br />I guess we know what T-Space was doing while Lockheed was basking in Popular Mechanics glory...<br /><br />This puts T-Space about even with the Russian Klipper project, as they too have a full scale mock-up.<br /><br />