Ok what about the infrastructure for CEV???

[john_316]

Ok we have talked at great lengths the CEV, HLV and Klipper but I still dont see alot of talk on the following issues. If anyone has any information then please post it here.<br /><br /><br />1. New Space Suits a)new lighter lunar suit designs? b) new mars suit designs? I have seen MIT mentioned for a skin tight suit for mars but not moon.<br /><br />2. I see that solar power is the going to be the way the CSM/CEV will be powered. Is there any Fuel Cell Technology going to be used here at all? I am interested in knowing what process water will be created or used in this system? complete h20 storage? <br /><br />3. Ok lunar rover #2 will it be the size of a Toyota pick up or what? I tend to think this new vehicle will be twice the size of the original rover and be able to do forays up to 20 miles out and back on the surface. Does this new rover also include a backhoe like those found on a bobcat? I mean this makes sense since we may need the use of a payloader or backhoe in the near future. I mean recharge the lunar rover powerplant etc etc from time to time.<br /><br />4. I understand the outpost will be Lunar Module (aka ISS) derived and possibly connected together. Does this mean the inflated hab design we all come to see is not part of the permanate plan? I mean more tin cans to live in like ISS? Why not just land an ISS module on the moon on a LL and connect them up as well.<br /><br />5. DC-X? I thought that this idea would be utilized in the desent and assent stage of the new LM? I mean the DC-X could be configured differently as it is now just for lunar and martian landings.<br /><br /><br />I dont see the practicality of using modules on a Lunar Lander as the building blocks to a Lunar Base. I see actual fabrication and construction of a base by using materials brought at first then later on indiginous to the lunar landscape.<br /><br />Two engineers could in my opinion begin fabrication of a lunar base using inflatible designs with an airlock and the use of a concrete cem

 

[nacnud]

There is some work going on on new rear entry suits, here is a link

 

[spacefire]

a single stage, refuelable and reusable LM would have been neat and doable. This once again proves that the motivation behind the VSE is not advancing space exploration. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[nyarlathotep]

>>"But it would be wasteful of up mass from the Moon and it would not leave the descent stage on the surface to be reused by future missions. "<br /><br />So, let me get this straight. You're going to re-use a 'descent stage' that you've previously left on the lunar surface?<br /><br />It's not just me that sees the problem here I hope.

 

[mikejz]

I would like to see an option for a 'lunar hopper' that once an area has been established that contains a source for lunar fuel, a refuelable vehicle could be used for short visits to other areas.

 

[spacefire]

what would the discarded stage be used as then? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[bushuser]

Eventually, you are going to need to bury those habitat modules for radiation protection...seems easier than radiation-hardening with big metal shields. If these guys are mining lunar materials, some of the holes will already be dug.<br /><br />The other choice is a small "safe hut" underground, which everyone can run to hide from solar events.

 

[radarredux]

> <i><font color="yellow">Eventually, you are going to need to bury those habitat modules for radiation protection</font>/i><br /><br />Years ago Lowell Wood from LLNL proposed such a system. An inflatable habitat would be buried (or covered by some means) in regolith. This provides radiation and micrometeorite protection. I suspect it might also serve as a thermal blanket.</i>

 

[spacefire]

ok...so you have a bunch of engines at various locations on the Moon. To get to all of them and recover them you will need some good long range rovers and the infrastructure to support those rovers-an amount of material orders of magnitude more than the discarded stages.<br />Which means the the lunar habitat-a full fledged Moon base- will have to be there BEFORE these materials are brought back to be reused.<br />No excuse for not making the landers single stage and reusable.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[dobbins]

Consider the cost of transporting material from Earth. Scrap Metal is going to have a very high value on the Moon until such time as manufacturing is set up.<br /><br />A Moonbase will be fanatical about recycling in the early stages.<br /><br />

 

[tap_sa]

I hope the ascent stage lifting off won't ruin the descent stage's tanks. One of the first things a base needs are tanks, for oxygen, water etc. especially when ISRU production begins.<br /><br />One option could be to leave the hab portion to the descent stage. Make the ascent stage as light, spartan as possible, unpressurised hopper that can lift just the astronauts in suits along with rock samples into orbit to meet with the CEV. This way the the LM left on lunar surface would be a small base that just needs either more supplies (oxygen etc) or ISRU equipment. And of course a fresh team of astronauts.

 

[henryhallam]

<font color="yellow"> Make the ascent stage as light, spartan as possible, unpressurised hopper that can lift just the astronauts in suits along with rock samples into orbit to meet with the CEV.</font><br /><br />This makes a lot of sense to me, of course the crew would have to ride in the ascent stage during descent in case an abort is needed. You could make it -really- spartan, with no walls or roof, like this one:<br /><br />http://www.astronautix.com/craft/lmlhtest.htm<br /><br />Boy would that be some ride.<br /><br />I have a bad feeling that this won't end up being the case though, and the new LM will end up looking a lot like the Apollo edition. I hope not.

 

[tap_sa]

Thanks for the link, that was exactly the kind of vehicle I had in mind. Have seen other similar designs too. The common thing is that the space suits take care of life support, the craft is just a small frame, thruster(s), tanks and seats for passengers.<br /><br />I'm fairly certain that the new LM will be just like Apollo. 'Naked' astronauts riding up a little funnycar is probably a bit too much for conservative NASA. And it's better that way, the less they deviate from the original plan the better chances this thing has to succeed. It's not a perfect plan, but at least it is a plan.

 

[dobbins]

It will have to go beyond just reusing parts in their current condition.<br /><br />When colonies were being established in what became the United States, when new towns were being set up on the frontier, one skill that was needed in these new settlements was a blacksmith, someone who could create the metal things things the settlers needed and didn't have easy access to. A settlement that didn't have a blacksmith was in trouble and unlikely to prosper.<br /><br />The Moonbase equivalent of the village smithy will the base's machinist. A Moonbase will need a machinist and a machine shop just as much as settlements in the past needed a blacksmith with his shop. The machinist will be working with stock that is imported from Earth and with what will be very high value scrap metal on the Moon.<br /><br />The reasons are simple, say some bracket on your Lunar rover breaks. It can't be used until it is repaired. If the next mission isn't scheduled for 4 months you have lost that capability for 4 months if you don't have another bracket. It's easier to send up a single stock piece of metal that can be made into any one of a thousand different parts than it is to send up a thousand parts for on hand spares. Being able to make these on location simplifies the logistics of supporting the base.<br /><br />

 

[dobbins]

The best use of composites will be to make part of the rocket structure into payload. Plastics consist of carbon and hydrogen, two elements that are lacking on the Moon. They will be more valuable broken down. If we use old fashioned cellioud plastics we also get nitrogen, another substance we need.<br />

 

[nacnud]

The ultimate meals on wheels: edible moon buggies <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />I do like the idea though...

 

[john_316]

The reason I pitch the DC-X/Y as a lunar lander is because its reusable and can be modified not to be a permanate piece of lunar junk as some desent stages will become.<br /><br />A new lighter space suit should be used for the lunar deal too.<br /><br />A moonbuggy that can transverse a few good miles would be pretty useful as well.<br /><br />I mention the inflatable hab and backhoe because it would make sense to partially fabricate your moonbase in an inflatable habitat and use of a backhoe to work with lunar soils to help against radiation.<br /><br />Another thing to on DC-X is that it also could be just used to ferry materials back and forth not just a manned vehicle as well.<br /><br />so here brings up a good question how big will the moon base be? 3 people? 4 people? 6 people? or is that just a gimmick for saying were gonna start one but not finish like ISS as we will well be on our ways to mars before the base is completed????<br /><br />lol <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br />

 

[dobbins]

Transportation costs insure that the processed metals in a landing stage won't be junk. They will be materials used by the base. The economics of recycling will be very different on the Moon or Mars, the "junk" makes the base closer to being self sufficient. Don't forget that reusable doesn't just mean reusable as a space ship.<br />

 

[john_316]

Recylcing will also cost money and resources to do as well. Possible smelter and fabrication on the moon would require a facility to do so just as a solar still set up would need one.<br /><br />I cant see a 100% recycled desent stage left behind on a lunar mission for moon base construction. If so great if not then reusability has its supporters.<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br />

 

[dobbins]

You don't need an expensive smelter to recycle the sheet metal off the stage into products needed by the base, you just need a simple sheet metal brake and some simple cutting tools. That a small lathe and milling machine and a drill press will make the "junk" into a valuable source of materials for countless odds and ends that the base will need, and which won't have to be transported.<br /><br />The cost of transporting something that is already there is zero dollars per kilogram, a price that can't be beat.<br />

 

[spacefire]

<font color="yellow">The best use of composites will be to make part of the rocket structure into payload.</font><br />or a rocket that burns itself!!! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>