Orbital to offer Orion LAS to others, including SpaceX?

[docm]

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n1002/18orionlas/

Orbital sees bright future for Orion launch abort system

The escape rocket that would shoot astronauts to safety from a failing spacecraft in the now-defunct Constellation program could be reborn in future commercial space vehicles, according to the head of Orbital Sciences Corp.

Orbital is still developing the Launch Abort System for the Orion spacecraft, although the program would be cancelled under the White House's new NASA policy released in early February.

The abort system would generate 400,000 pounds of thrust from a solid-fueled motor for a fraction of a second, enough power to rapidly whisk the Orion capsule, and the astronauts inside, from a failing rocket during launch.

"If the Constellation program is wrapped up, I think the Launch Abort System work that we've done is one of those elements that should have an excellent opportunity to be transferred into future human spaceflight systems, whether those would involve Orbital putting the entire system together or supplying the Launch Abort System to some other prime contracter that might be in the running for that work," said David Thompson, the company's chairman and CEO.
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In place of the Constellation program, NASA is planning to turn over responsibility for human spaceflight to commercial transportation services. Leading contenders for the new role in space operations include major contractors like Boeing Co. and Lockheed Martin Corp. Orbital and Space Exploration Technologies Corp., or SpaceX, are also vying for the space transport job.

"I think the work we've done over the last two-and-a-half years [with the abort system] should be pretty directly transferrable into one or more of the human spaceflight systems that NASA would expect to promote over the next five years," Thompson said.
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[bushwhacker]

well heck yes if orbitals is almost done that could save spacex a few years

 

[mr_mark]

Only problem is that Spacex's Dragon can't use the Orion LAS because it's too large for Dragon. So, Spacex would either use the technology, but why, and scale it down or be back to square one. Sounds like a non starter for them. One thing of interest if Orbital is thinking about selling their LAS, then most likely they are not going to enter the manned space arena. Why would you share your system with companies you are in competition with.

 

[docm]

Too large? Resize/reshape the adapter cone and reduce the charges changing the software to match. What else?

 

[rockett]

That was actually my thought when I posted this:
http://www.space.com/common/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=22718

In fact, it was an example I used...

 

[Gravity_Ray]

Only problem is that Spacex's Dragon can't use the Orion LAS because it's too large for Dragon. So, Spacex would either use the technology, but why, and scale it down or be back to square one. Sounds like a non starter for them. One thing of interest if Orbital is thinking about selling their LAS, then most likely they are not going to enter the manned space arena. Why would you share your system with companies you are in competition with.

Well the CEO of Orbital did say that they would be open to put the LAS system together for another prime contractor including SpaceX. Although you are correct that Orbital and SpaceX are in competition with each other, but this is exactly why it’s the right choice to allow private companies to do this kind of work (getting people to LEO). Business after all is business, and Orbital will not walk away from 50-100 million dollars contract to sell their LAS even to their competitors, and SpaceX will be happy to build on other work that is already done.

There is one more test coming up for Orbital's LAS system, so this is still a long-term thing and may or may not happen. But I am very glad to see this kind of attitude towards getting people to space. This is why it takes NASA so long to do something like this versus a private company that doesn’t feel the NEED to do everything itself. This is the speed of capitalism at work here.

 

[Valcan]

Only problem is that Spacex's Dragon can't use the Orion LAS because it's too large for Dragon. So, Spacex would either use the technology, but why, and scale it down or be back to square one. Sounds like a non starter for them. One thing of interest if Orbital is thinking about selling their LAS, then most likely they are not going to enter the manned space arena. Why would you share your system with companies you are in competition with.

Well the CEO of Orbital did say that they would be open to put the LAS system together for another prime contractor including SpaceX. Although you are correct that Orbital and SpaceX are in competition with each other, but this is exactly why it’s the right choice to allow private companies to do this kind of work (getting people to LEO). Business after all is business, and Orbital will not walk away from 50-100 million dollars contract to sell their LAS even to their competitors, and SpaceX will be happy to build on other work that is already done.

There is one more test coming up for Orbital's LAS system, so this is still a long-term thing and may or may not happen. But I am very glad to see this kind of attitude towards getting people to space. This is why it takes NASA so long to do something like this versus a private company that doesn’t feel the NEED to do everything itself. This is the speed of capitalism at work here.

Yes sometimes its good to be a capitalist pig dog :lol:

 

[vulture4]

A LAS has never been used in flight, or on a US spacecraft. The Gemini did not even have one. We certainly shouldn't require a LAS because of the myth that it eliminates all or most risk. The Soyuz LAS saved one crew on the pad (by the skin of their teeth) and caused one fatal accident. The LAS has little impact on risk, and the huge LAS required for Orion was one more factor contributing to the failure of the program. SpaceX does almost everything in-house but solids aren't in their line, so if NASA requires a LAS they may buy one.

I am not against having a LAS if it can be done at reasonable cost and weight, but I do not think is is really necessary. If you can't build a reliable launch vehicle you have no business putting people on it.

 

[docm]

Along those lines: anyone seen an airliner with ejection seats lately?

Just asking....

 

[EarthlingX]

Nope. At least not in those i flew with, i think i would notice ..

 

[steve82]

There are several more flight tests that need to be performed before the LAS is considered ready for manned flight. These include Ascent Abort tests on surplus missile boosters to accomplish successful maximum dynamic pressure separations that are now in limbo with the Orion program facing cancellation. NASA was responsible for executing and paying for the tests-presumably the commercial vendors are now willing to pick up the tab.
The LAS was never a limiting factor on the Orion program, its development has proceeded smoothly and will be flying flight hardware before Falcon 9 gets off the ground. The Orion LAS concept might be adaptable to other vehicles, but it is the tons of analysis and trades between the LAS, the vehicle shape, mass properties, stability in various abort modes, and the launch vehicle trajectory that go into developing it. Add to that the huge software development effort to come up with the Abort Decision Logic to allow automatic deployment of the LAS and you are talking huge bucks, hope the COTS vendors have deep pockets.
Gemini did not have a LAS because it had ejection seats.
The rationalizations I am hearing for not having a LAS from the Orion-bashers are straight out of the pre-Challenger handbook. When COTS can come up with LOC/LOM numbers equal to the airliners, I'll listen to the the ejection seat in airliners argument. Until then it is bogus.

 

[Swampcat]

The LAS was never a limiting factor on the Orion program, its development has proceeded smoothly and will be flying flight hardware before Falcon 9 gets off the ground.

Could you provide a source for this assertion? What LAS hardware will fly in the next couple of months?

 

[steve82]

The PA-1 Pad Abort 1 test will be at White Sands in April:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pad_Abort_1_(Orion)
It will use a Flight LAS and a boilerplate NASA-furnished CM.
The other LAS flight tests needed to clear the LAS are in jeapardy with the new budget but include Ascent-Abort 2 (CM separation in flight from a missile booster), PA-2, and AA3. Originally it was planned to use Ares 1-Y as a high altitude high mach number abort but some other means will be needed to verify that flight regime.

 

[docm]

This thread is now moot due to Musk announcing that Dragon will use an embedded LAS: removable thrusters built into the wall of a crew Dragon using the RCS fuel under the theory that if you use the LAS you won't need the RCS.

 

[Swampcat]

The PA-1 Pad Abort 1 test will be at White Sands in April...

Thanks.

 

[steve82]

This thread is now moot due to Musk announcing that Dragon will use an embedded LAS: removable thrusters built into the wall of a crew Dragon using the RCS fuel under the theory that if you use the LAS you won't need the RCS.

Interesting concept, sounds well worth looking at.