Orion asteroid mission?

[docm]

http://www.space.com/news/061116_asteroid_nasa.html<br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p><b>NASA Studies Manned Asteroid Mission</b><br /><br />NASA is appraising a human mission to a near-Earth asteroid—gauging the scientific merit of the endeavor while testing out spacecraft gear, as well as mastering techniques that could prove useful if a space rock ever took aim for our planet.<br /><br />Space agency teams are looking into use of Constellation hardware for a human Near-Earth Object (NEO) mission—an effort underway at NASA’s Ames Research. Another study is delving into use of Constellation components to support an automated Mars sample return mission. That study is led by NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California.<br /><br />The Constellation Program encompasses NASA’s initial efforts to extend the human presence throughout the solar system.<br /><br />Major pieces of the Constellation Program—such as the Orion crew vehicle—are meant to support transport of humans and cargo to the Moon and to the International Space Station, while future efforts would sustain missions to Mars and beyond.<br /><br />Astronauts, engineers and scientists at NASA’s Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas have been looking into the capabilities of the Orion vehicle for a mission to a near-Earth asteroid. <br /> /><p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Thanx!<br />I'm all for it, once we have a system that works <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[spacester]

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!<br /><br />I've only been waiting for this announcement for 4+ years. Finally we'll get the aces working on the difficult orbital mechanics and timing logistics involved with exploiting, exploring and otherwise dealing with the NEOs. I hope I can get some access to their work, I would really like to extrapolate from their mission objectives to actual mining operations.<br /><br />I've said it for years and no one has even so much as made a credible case that I'm wrong: Setting aside the commonly held notion to the contrary, there is no reason why Asteroid Mining cannot be economically accomplished within the next 15 years. There are no show-stoppers.<br /><br />Dr. Griffin said he was going to use the Constellation Program beyond the moon sooner than later and it looks like the planning to do just that is underway!<br /><br />Yah-Hooooooo!<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[spacefire]

maybe the Moon will be forgotten and the CEV used exclusively for asteroid missions <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

Shuttle_Guy, how different would a NEO craft (capsule and lander) be from from a lunar craft? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[baktothemoon]

I bet you would need an MMU to walk around though. The gravity would be far too light to walk around normally. Like in the movie Armaggeddon where they had packs with thrusters so they could walk and drive on the asteroid. On the other hand, it would be cool to be able to put yourself into an orbit with a running jump.

 

[qso1]

Welcome news. This would be an inexpensive way to do both the moon and asteroids and capture public imagination with something completely new to the public. All while doing worthy science at both locales.<br /><br />Who says NASA doesn't have what it takes anymore? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[rfoshaug]

This is excellent! Although the space shuttle is a great accomplishment, I believe NASA should focus more on exploration and less on ferrying people to and from LEO. And this is definitely a big step in the right direction.<br /><br /><br />I'm guessing that they wouldn't need a lander at all - they'd just do a tethered (or with EMU/MMU-like backpacks) EVA's to the surface from an orbit just a few meters above the surface. But they would probably need some sort of habitat module as the Orion capsule would be very cramped for a 4-member crew for a couple of months.<br /><br />It would be human kind's first solar orbit / deep space mission, and the PR value of it would be extremely great for NASA. It would also be scientifically valuable, as well as an important learning curve for later Mars missions. It's an excellent idea! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff9900">----------------------------------</font></p><p><font color="#ff9900">My minds have many opinions</font></p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

I had been assuming they would attempt those that got within one or two lunar orbit diameters. However, if they must go farther, your habitat will need a radiation shelter and some exercise equipment. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[rocketman5000]

any one thinking a Bigelow Aerospace Gensis module might be the perfect peice of equipment? Talk about COTS, he already has a module in orbit!!

 

[docm]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p><i>However, if they must go farther, your habitat will need a radiation shelter and some exercise equipment.</i><p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Last I checked the internal volume of Bigelow's Nautilus is to be 330 m³, which is about 3/4 the current habitable volume of the ISS (425 m³). <br /><br />It also comes standard with water jackets & no doubt would have space for a "hot room" & some exercise gear. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[mithridates]

This is some pretty exciting news, and makes a lot of sense. I've always wondered about small asteroids and what the gravity there would feel like, and the near lack of gravity makes it really easy to take off and come back to Earth again. There's also that nice Little Prince element that I think people would like, and it'll serve as a reminder that there's quite a bit of stuff in between Earth and Mars to see, and that we don't just have to restrict ourselves to planets.<br /><br />What about the possibility of setting up a telescope on the asteroid while they're there? Asteroids spin quite fast and it would be quite easy to set it to image just about anything in the sky by timing it just right.<br /><br />I can't seem to find a list of potential asteroids for this mission though - any candidates? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>

 

[mithridates]

Actually, a ship could probably just be fitted with a rubber bottom to make a landing - bring it in nice and slow, let it bounce a few times and then leave the ship after it has set down.<br /><br />When leaving the asteroid, it could even begin with something as primitive as a spring-loaded mechanism. Hell, four astronauts could lift up the ship themselves, jump and then get in before using a rocket to build up speed to get back to Earth. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>

 

[qso1]

willpittenger:<br />I had been assuming they would attempt those that got within one or two lunar orbit diameters.<br /><br />Me:<br />They will need radiation sheilding anyway. Thats a concern even for going to the moon. I would imagine since the mission duration of an asteroid flight would probably be at least a couple months, that there will be more attention to radiation protection.<br /><br />The up side is, they get to gain experience with radiation and semi deep space flight that would be beneficial to future mars explorers. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[qso1]

I agree that NASA should be in the exploration rather than transport business. It appears they now realize this and private industry/enterprise will take up the low orbit economical access problem.<br /><br />I like your idea of not using a lander. That makes good sense to me because they will need something a little beefier than Orion as it is to do this type of mission. An Orion with a larger or lengthier service module at the very least to support the crew for longer duration missions.<br /><br />And it will definetely be a good learning curve for mars. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

I would think a knuckleball's flight would be described as fluttering <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br />Fastballs, they zip! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[gunsandrockets]

"An Orion with a larger or lengthier service module at the very least to support the crew for longer duration missions."<br /><br />That depends on the crew size and length of the mission!<br /><br />The Orion has, I believe, two weeks of life support when carrying a crew of four. If an asteroid rendezvous mission was conducted with a crew of two instead of four and extra consumables carried in place of the crew accomdations left behind, my back of the envelope calculation shows a mission endurance exceeding 40 days is possible.<br /><br />A two man 40 day mission to an NEO seems perfectly reasonable to me!

 

[darkenfast]

I brought this up about a year ago. My idea was to modify an LSAM, which would fly with a CEV/SM as in the Lunar profile. The LSAM cabin would obviously serve as a small hab, and the descent stage would be stripped of it's landing gear and any other reinforcement to save weight. The tanks and engine for the ascent stage might possibly be replaced by other consumables. The actual landing on the asteroid would be accomplished as an EVA, using something like the old Manned Maneuvering Unit. <br /><br />I do understand that the actual orbital requirements for getting to one of these NEO's can be quite difficult, as they are often in bizzare orbits in relationship to Earth, so it may not be as easy as one would think, but it sure sounds like a great mission!

 

[willpittenger]

They did without shielding on Apollo missions. Shorter missions mean less risk. The problem with LEO misson would be you need a lot of fuel for the delta-v that you need to ensure a short mission time. Less fuel is a possiblity -- if you don't mind extra risk. How much time do you spend in casinos throwing away your life's savings? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

Your touchdown method has a serious problem. At first contact, your ship would start to spin. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

The orbits around the sun are not the only orbits to be concerned about. Orbiting an asteroid can be tough. They have a weird center of mass (or gravity). Compliting matters, that gravity would pull you in were the rock bulges out towards your orbit. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

The ones that Near and the Japanese craft went to are probably both easy to get to -- at least at times. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[gunsandrockets]

"My idea was to modify an LSAM, which would fly with a CEV/SM as in the Lunar profile. The LSAM cabin would obviously serve as a small hab, and the descent stage would be stripped of it's landing gear and any other reinforcement to save weight. The tanks and engine for the ascent stage might possibly be replaced by other consumables. The actual landing on the asteroid would be accomplished as an EVA, using something like the old Manned Maneuvering Unit."<br /><br />A lot depends on just how big an asteroid we are talking about. Even one as small as Deimos, the outer moon of Mars, has an escape velocity of 20 mph. That might not sound like much but that's plenty to damage a spacecraft without some kind of landing gear to absorb the shock. Landing though on a really tiny tiny asteroid could resemble a docking more than a landing operation.<br /><br /><br />The really key factor though is not even the size of the asteroid, but how much spacecraft delta V is needed to match the trajectory of the asteroid plus the delta V needed to return to Earth. If a full blown Ares V launch is used to support the mission, then many asteroids may be within reach. On the other hand it might be possible to conduct a cheaper mission by docking the Orion in LEO with a small Earth Departure Stage launched by an Ares I or Delta IV heavy(!), but that might limit the mission to only a flyby of an asteroid.<br /><br />"I do understand that the actual orbital requirements for getting to one of these NEO's can be quite difficult, as they are often in bizzare orbits in relationship to Earth, so it may not be as easy as one would think, but it sure sounds like a great mission!"<br /><br />One point to keep in mind is the Orion spacecraft has enough delta V to brake into EML-1 or EML-2 plus do a TEI burn to return to Earth. So an Orion spacecraft might be able to visit a tiny asteroid without the help of the LSAM. But if the extra mass of the LSAM is included than you have to use the large Ares V la

 

[qso1]

None of the Apollo missions exceeded two weeks. Asteroid missions while shorter than a mars mission, will be significantly longer than going to the moon. Mainly because candidate asteroids rarely get close enough to earth and those that do may exceed the delta V capability of a modified Orion craft and they are not usually discovered till its too late to plan and execute a mission.<br /><br />Shielding could be minimal and maybe by the time such missions begin to get underway, some new radiation study will say the radiation hazard is minimal.<br /><br />I can't afford to even go to a Casino Lol. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[gunsandrockets]

"Asteroid missions while shorter than a mars mission, will be significantly longer than going to the moon."<br /><br />It occurs to me that an asteroid mission which used less shielding than a Mars mission might be a good experiment for qualifying Mars mission shielding requirements because the reduction of shielding for the asteroid mission could be matched with the reduced duration of the mission. Interesting.