Orion won't fly until early 2015

[thereiwas]

Ok, I'm with you on Griffin, but every time he refers to "the President's vision for space exploration" my brain curdles. We all know this "vision" did not originate with W, or anywhere close to him.<br /><br />I'd bet Lockmart.

 

[jimfromnsf]

Not LM because the ESAS is ATK's doing. <br /><br />BTW Griffin is on his way out. He won't make it into the administration and he going to leave NASA in shambles with all the bad decisions he's made. Also I would include him with the other cabinet members too. <br /><br />As for the VSE, it came from the president's administration there, it is his

 

[lampblack]

<font color="yellow">Ok, I'm with you on Griffin, but every time he refers to "the President's vision for space exploration" my brain curdles. We all know this "vision" did not originate with W, or anywhere close to him. <br /><br />I'd bet Lockmart.</font><br /><br />This likely will be a controversial opinion, but the Vision is in fact Dick Cheney's single useful contribution to U.S. governmental policy.<br /><br />Look back at the space-related media coverage prior to W's much-ballyhooed speech. You'll find references to Cheney holding small group meetings ad nauseum on space policy.<br /><br />It wouldn't be politically expedient for anyone to acknowledge it, but the Vision is Cheney's baby. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#0000ff"><strong>Just tell the truth and let the chips fall...</strong></font> </div>

 

[Boris_Badenov]

<font color="yellow"> the Vision is Cheney's baby </font><br /><br />Darth Cheney <img src="/images/icons/shocked.gif" /><br /><br />NOOOOOOOOOOOOO <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

<i>Griffin is on his way out.</i><br /><br />Assertion. Evidence is required.<br /><br /><i>He... [is] going to leave NASA in shambles with all the bad decisions he's made.</i> <br /><br />What bad decisions?<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[scottb50]

I'm the guy who argued in 2004 that the VSE was nothing more than a campaign ploy, and that anyone who thought dubya was going to be the champion of Space Flight was deluded. I was right, of course.<br /><br />Hey! I said that from day 1. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[spacester]

I remember - let's call it a tie?<br /><br />BTW, where's WVBraun these days? <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[thereiwas]

Ah, Cheney, that makes sense. His goal from the beginning has always been to extract as much money as possible from the public coffers and feed it to his defense-contractor friends.

 

[Boris_Badenov]

<font color="yellow"> Cheney, that makes sense. His goal from the beginning has always been to extract as much money as possible from the public coffers and feed it to his defense-contractor friends. </font><br /><br />Really it does. ATK & Lock/Mart supply the transportation, a Halliburton subsidiary sets up the platinum mining operation & Exon/Mobil fabricates the fuel cells Earth side. If this plan were put into effect before anybody else was ready, & oil starts to go out the window, they would have a substantial jump on the competition. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>

 

[holmec]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Putin recently has been perceived to be reverting back to a Soviet like autocratic style, etc....If near term relations go south, the ISS program could very well be in jeopardy<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Good point. Unfortunately there is not much to do about it for space programs point of view and historically relations in space between Russia and the US have gotten better and better. There has been no political incident to adversely affect that relationship. I don't think the politicians want to mess with space programs being high profile and all. And even more so with the space tourist industry. Keep our fingers crossed. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[jimfromnsf]

Implemtenting the VSE by the ESAS is the bad decision. <br /><br />Griffin is not going to stay on for the next administration

 

[JonClarke]

What is your evidence and reasoning for both these assertions?<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[jimfromnsf]

1. The CLV isn't as the ESAS (4 segment SRB with SSME) specified. No where in the ESAS does it sat current Ares I is the next best thing. <br /><br />2. ESAS implementation is delaying the first flight of the CEV. An EELV derivative could fly the CEV sooner and cheaper than the Stick<br /><br />3. The ESAS is a way to get a big booster, keep 10 healthy centers, keep certain congressional districts happy and give ATK business. It is not a method of exploring the moon and Mars efficiently for less cost<br /><br />4. Some members of congress are not happy with Mikey.<br /><br />5. Mikey doesn't want the job that long. <br /><br />6. Next administration won't be doing the VSE Mikey's way

 

[JonClarke]

<i>1. The CLV isn't as the ESAS (4 segment SRB with SSME) specified. No where in the ESAS does it sat current Ares I is the next best thing.</i><br /><br />So what?<br /><br /><i>2. ESAS implementation is delaying the first flight of the CEV. An EELV derivative could fly the CEV sooner and cheaper than the Stick </i><br /><br />What evidence do you have to justify this assertion?<br /><br /><i>3. The ESAS is a way to get a big booster, keep 10 healthy centers, keep certain congressional districts happy and give ATK business. It is not a method of exploring the moon and Mars efficiently for less cost </i><br /><br />What is your alternative?<br /><br /><i>4. Some members of congress are not happy with Mikey.</i><br /><br />Some members of congress would be unhappy with whoever was in the office and whatever they did. Unless there is a majority, so what?<br /><br /><i>5. Mikey doesn't want the job that long.</i><br /><br />Evidence please.<br /><br /><i>6. Next administration won't be doing the VSE Mikey's way.</i><br /><br />Evidence for your opinion? Unless you have a crystal ball we will have to wait and see.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[jimfromnsf]

1. There are a better solutions<br /><br />2. We were going to do it for OSP and O'Keefe's CEV. ESAS numbers for EELV solutions were doctored for make them look bad, just as the Stick numbers were lowered to make then look good. The current stick funding requirements and previous EELV development costs (which were high but still less than anything MSFC could do) are my proof<br />3. Contract out launch services just as they are done today. Let industry find the solutions. <br />4. The important ones are the ones with NASA centers in their districts and they are the unhappy ones.<br /><br />5. HQ hallway talk<br /><br />6. Just as Mikey "cleaned house" so will the next admin. Next admin won't be a ATK supporter<br /><br />