Pad 39A Flame Trench Damage

Status
Not open for further replies.
T

Testing

Guest
Aviation Week is reporting&nbsp;TWO &nbsp;area's of fire brick damage and the asbestos was behind, not in the brick. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
S

shuttle_guy

Guest
<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Aviation Week is reporting&nbsp;TWO &nbsp;area's of fire brick damage and the asbestos was behind, not in the brick. <br />Posted by Testing</DIV></p><p>Yes, I was wrong. I said it was in the bricks however it was behind the bricks. I am not sure if that is better than being in the bricks or worse.....</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
T

Testing

Guest
<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Yes, I was wrong. I said it was in the bricks however it was behind the bricks. I am not sure if that is better than being in the bricks or worse..... <br />Posted by shuttle_guy</DIV></p><p>They also said the team had til end of June to come up with a plan. Maybe there is a good smoke and mirror guy that can present that the Asbestos was vaporized. Hope it doesn't become a Superfund site.<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
W

windnwar

Guest
Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>They also said the team had til end of June to come up with a plan. Maybe there is a good smoke and mirror guy that can present that the Asbestos was vaporized. Hope it doesn't become a Superfund site. <br />Posted by Testing</DIV><br /><br />I can't see it being a concern being behind the brick. As for removal, using proper respirator gear its not difficult to remove, handling is not an issue, its breathing it thats a problem. Interestingly though recent studies of how carbon nano tubes act when inhaled makes them seem very similar in properties to asbestos in lung tissue. It'll be interesting to see how its dealt with if they start making items out of them, not that its going to happen on a mass production scale soon but it adds to the problems. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font size="2" color="#0000ff">""Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." --Albert Einstein"</font></p> </div>
 
T

Testing

Guest
<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I can't see it being a concern being behind the brick. As for removal, using proper respirator gear its not difficult to remove, handling is not an issue, its breathing it thats a problem. Interestingly though recent studies of how carbon nano tubes act when inhaled makes them seem very similar in properties to asbestos in lung tissue. It'll be interesting to see how its dealt with if they start making items out of them, not that its going to happen on a mass production scale soon but it adds to the problems. <br />Posted by windnwar</DIV></p><p>Sorry, guess this is a bit ambigous. The asbestos is not where it was any more. It's all over the field, over the fence and in the water containing protected Manatee's. EPA could concievably make them decontaminate the entire area. Perhaps a street sweeper making repeated passes over the field? Pass it on SG if no one has proposed it.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
M

MeteorWayne

Guest
<div id="post-244661" class="postcolor">NASA engineers are guaranteeing that damage to the flame trench will be fixed before the August rollout of Atlantis for an early October launch to repair the Hubble Space Telescope.<br /><br />"We'll be fixed and ready to go by that point," assistant launch director Ed Mango said.<br /><br />After Discovery's May 31 launch, NASA engineers found that some 5,300 bricks had been blown out of a wall in the flame trench, traveling as far as 1,800 feet to a perimeter fence and beyond.<br /><br />Bits of asbestos filler material also were found in the debris.<br /><br />Technicians have done tap testing to find loose bricks and have drilled two-inch test holes into several bricks to determine whether they will hold during the next launch.<br /><br />NASA favors fixing the gash with a spray-on heat resistant material. Replacing the nearly 50-year-old bricks would be difficult.<br /><br />"They're not readily available," said structural engineer Perry Becker, who is in charge of NASA's investigation and repair plan.<br /><br />Becker said the concrete wall of the flame trench is not damaged, but it must be protected from the shuttle's 6 million pounds of thrust.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/08061...ad-repairs.html </div> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>
 
D

DrRocket

Guest
<p>[QUOTE..;.Becker said the concrete wall of the flame trench is not damaged, but it must be protected from the shuttle's 6 million pounds of thrust.http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/08061...ad-repairs.html <br />Posted by MeteorWayne[/QUOTE]</p><p>This is a pretty weird way to phrase the problem.&nbsp; A flame duct does not see thrust.&nbsp; It sees flow of relatively hot, but rapidly expanding and cooling gas, plus some areas of somewhat increased temperature and pressure as the&nbsp;gas "shocks down" from supersonic to subsonic velocity&nbsp;.&nbsp; I would think that the exhaust of the solids is more of a factor in degradation of the masonry than is the exhaust from the liquids.&nbsp; The solid exhaust has a significant amount of HCL in it which be comes hydrochloric acid when mixed with water.&nbsp;&nbsp; But the issues&nbsp;involve&nbsp;chemistry, heat transfer, and erosion&nbsp;and not thrust.&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
D

DrRocket

Guest
<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>...Replacing the nearly 50-year-old bricks would be difficult."They're not readily available," said structural engineer Perry Becker, who is in charge of NASA's investigation and repair plan.Becker said the concrete wall of the flame trench is not damaged, but it must be protected from the shuttle's 6 million pounds of thrust.http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/08061...ad-repairs.html <br />Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV></p><p>Beyond what is in the news article, does anyone know why the shuttle trench uses the brick and asbestos barrier wall ?&nbsp; I haven't seen the shuttle launch pad up close, but I seem to recmember that the pad at Canaveral used for Titan had what looked like poured concrete walls.&nbsp; I don't recall if they were actively cooled with water or not during launch.&nbsp; The test pad used for static tests of the Titan solids at Edwards AFB had, as I recall, a concrete flame bucket that was actively cooled with water -- but that say exhaust gas for the full duration of the motor burn.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
M

MeteorWayne

Guest
Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Beyond what is in the news article, does anyone know why the shuttle trench uses the brick and asbestos barrier wall ?&nbsp; I haven't seen the shuttle launch pad up close, but I seem to recmember that the pad at Canaveral used for Titan had what looked like poured concrete walls.&nbsp; I don't recall if they were actively cooled with water or not during launch.&nbsp; The test pad used for static tests of the Titan solids at Edwards AFB had, as I recall, a concrete flame bucket that was actively cooled with water -- but that say exhaust gas for the full duration of the motor burn. <br />Posted by DrRocket</DIV><br /><br />Pure speculation here, but perhaps it is different with the shuttle. I would imagine the gas outflow is much higher from that compared to a Titan :) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>
 
C

Cygnus_2112

Guest
<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Beyond what is in the news article, does anyone know why the shuttle trench uses the brick and asbestos barrier wall ?&nbsp; I haven't seen the shuttle launch pad up close, but I seem to recmember that the pad at Canaveral used for Titan had what looked like poured concrete walls.&nbsp; I don't recall if they were actively cooled with water or not during launch.&nbsp; The test pad used for static tests of the Titan solids at Edwards AFB had, as I recall, a concrete flame bucket that was actively cooled with water -- but that say exhaust gas for the full duration of the motor burn. <br /> Posted by DrRocket</DIV></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>The walls of the titan pad weren't bare concrete.&nbsp; They were coated. &nbsp; </p><p>&nbsp;The shuttle pads were design for the saturn V which had a long ignition sequence and slow lift off&nbsp;</p>
 
C

CalliArcale

Guest
<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>&nbsp;The walls of the titan pad weren't bare concrete.&nbsp; They were coated. &nbsp; &nbsp;The shuttle pads were design for the saturn V which had a long ignition sequence and slow lift off&nbsp; <br /> Posted by Cygnus_2112</DIV></p><p>I love watching videos of those.&nbsp; This huge leviathan, ponderously lifting off the pad....&nbsp; I wish I could've seen one, but I was born too late. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>
 
S

shuttle_guy

Guest
<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I love watching videos of those.&nbsp; This huge leviathan, ponderously lifting off the pad....&nbsp; I wish I could've seen one, but I was born too late. <br />Posted by CalliArcale</DIV></p><p>That comment makes me feels old.....but then I am old. The first Saturn Five I worked on was the Apollo 14 launch vehicle. For the launch I was standing on the east side of the VAB. The shock waves were hitting me causing the front of my clothing to&nbsp;move then the shock waves hit the VAB and bounced back to hit me from behind. Unforgetable.......</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
Q

qso1

Guest
<p>I saw Apollos 15 and 17 as a teenager, both unforgettable. Especially 17 when it lit the whole sky up. I was in Melbourne for that shot, on the beach. Couldn't see anything when we got there. Just after liftoff, I could see hundreds of people on the beach that I didn't know were there minutes earlier.&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>
 
B

BrianSlee

Guest
<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Aviation Week is reporting&nbsp;TWO &nbsp;area's of fire brick damage and the asbestos was behind, not in the brick. <br />Posted by Testing</DIV><br /><br />Why not get rid of the pad altogether</p><p>see thread "rocket powered blimps" in Space Science and Astronomy</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p>"I am therefore I think" </p><p>"The only thing "I HAVE TO DO!!" is die, in everything else I have freewill" Brian P. Slee</p> </div>
 
B

BrianSlee

Guest
Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I saw Apollos 15 and 17 as a teenager, both unforgettable. Especially 17 when it lit the whole sky up. I was in Melbourne for that shot, on the beach. Couldn't see anything when we got there. Just after liftoff, I could see hundreds of people on the beach that I didn't know were there minutes earlier.&nbsp; <br />Posted by qso1</DIV><br /><br />A very good friend of mine, Herb Hoelle who passed away several years ago,&nbsp;helped design the deluge system for the Apollo program.&nbsp; Just hearing about the pads always makes me think of him. )O: <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p>"I am therefore I think" </p><p>"The only thing "I HAVE TO DO!!" is die, in everything else I have freewill" Brian P. Slee</p> </div>
 
Q

qso1

Guest
<p><font color="#800080">Why not get rid of the pad altogethersee thread "rocket powered blimps" in Space Science and Astronomy <br /> Posted by BrianSlee</font></p><p>I would imagine that over time, we could get rid of the pad one day. Especially if rocket powered blimps prove to be the way to go.&nbsp;</p><p>However, the pad merely sustained damage on a single launch and it usually suffers some kind of superficial repairable damage on every launch. Considering how many launches the pads have been thru, this is hardly surprising. Saying get rid of the pad because of some damage is like saying get rid of the car because of a fender bender.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>
 
Q

qso1

Guest
<p><font color="#800080">A very good friend of mine, Herb Hoelle who passed away several years ago,&nbsp;helped design the deluge system for the Apollo program.&nbsp; Just hearing about the pads always makes me think of him. )O: Posted by BrianSlee</font></p><p>Sorry to hear he passed on. But its always nice to hear of a name of someone who contributed to the Apollo or space program other than key managers or astronauts.&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

ASK THE COMMUNITY