Phoenix Mars Lander.

[jimfromnsf]

No real groundbreaking news. there are always missions in the planning. <i>ad hominem deleted</i><br /> Here is a link with <i>ad hominem deleted</i>information for you . <br />http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/future/futureMissions.html<br /><i>irrelevant comment deleted</i><br /><br />I have worked every Mars mission since 2001<br />

 

[gunsandrockets]

< <i>irrelevant quote deleted</i> ><br /><br /> <i>response to irrelevant quote deleted</i><br /><br /><I have worked every Mars mission since 2001 /><br /><br />If true that doesn't fill me with confidence considering your <i>ad hominem deleted</i> not taking into account the 2 tonne mass of the Viking orbiters when comparing the launch needs of the MER vs the Viking lander. <br /><br />

 

[Boris_Badenov]

What is that supposed to be, & which one are you? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>

 

[jimfromnsf]

I showed an existing link that backed my claim and you can't say it wasn't good enough. Are you jealous that I can't show an outsider like you the good info. I am not going to post SBU data because you can't except that I am on the inside and you are on the outside<br /><br />I accounted for the orbiter. It was the "cruise stage" for Viking. Every lander has one. Viking heatshields were not designed for direct entry so the "cruise stage" had to carry extra fuel for braking into orbit. <br /><br />

 

[jimfromnsf]

MRO and I am the one with a face

 

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">"...why not reuse systems and designs with a proven track record of success?"</font><br /><br />Which system would you reuse? Do you think that any system that has <br />already been used can be reused for the MSL? If the MSL system works well<br />it may be used for future missions and you will have what you want.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">"...If there is any Mars surface mission planned by NASA beyond MSL <br />that's real groundbreaking news..."</font><br /><br />On one hand you demand a system be developed that can be used on all<br />Mars missions. Then you say there are no planned Mars missions. This was <br />the point I already made. Why develop a system for multiple missions<br />when there is no money to actually fly multiple missions? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Jim and G&R<br /><br />Moderator mode on.<br /><br />Guys, you are both knowledgable people who mave made useful contributions to this board. However, this sniping and counter sniping <b>must stop</b>. Other forum members must be treated with respect, even if they do not respond in kind. I will be editing both your posts for comments in this thread that are needlessly arrogant and belittling of other members.<br /><br />Moderator mode off.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[gunsandrockets]

<I showed an existing link that backed my claim and you can't say it wasn't good enough.><br /><br /><br />Your very specific claim was that the skycrane system will be used in another Mars surface mission. The link you provided has zero backup for your assertion and zero backup for any new Mars surface mission. Studies do not amount to a mission. Your link shows nothing but vaporware.<br /><br /><I accounted for the orbiter. It was the "cruise stage" for Viking. Every lander has one. Viking heatshields were not designed for direct entry so the "cruise stage" had to carry extra fuel for braking into orbit. /><br /><br />The Viking lander orbited in a high Mars orbit with a 24.66 hr period and a velocity of 4 km/s. Atmospheric entry speed of the MER was about 6 km/s and the MER heatshield massed less than 10% of the MER. The Viking lander did not have some kind of heatshield inadequacy which neccessitated a massive orbiter for propulsive braking!<br /><br />The real reason the Viking lander stayed with the orbiter instead of using direct entry was so the orbiter could survey the landing zone first. Viking didn't have the luxury of highly detailed survey maps. That information had to be provided by the Viking orbiters themselves.<br /><br />http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/database/MasterCatalog?sc=1975-075A <br /><br />A Viking lander does not need a 2,300 kg orbiter. There is no reason why a 200 kg cruise stage couldn't have been adapted to a Viking lander instead. So a Viking lander without the huge Viking orbiter does not need a Titan IIIE class launch vehicle to reach Mars. <br /><br />

 

[no_way]

Here's Henry Spencers take on airbags vs powered landing:<br />http://groups.google.com/group/sci.space.policy/msg/2d724509f21fe187<br /><br />bottom line as i read it: airbags are/were a dead end, probably not worth the detour.

 

[jimfromnsf]

"A Viking lander does not need a 2,300 kg orbiter. There is no reason why a 200 kg cruise stage couldn't have been adapted to a Viking lander instead. So a Viking lander without the huge Viking orbiter does not need a Titan IIIE class launch vehicle to reach Mars."<br /><br />Never said the heat shield was inadequate, just that is wasn't designed of direct entry. To use this heatshield without the orbiter would still necessitate large amounts of propellant on the "cruise stage"<br /><br />But you are incorrect as usual, no other LV's could have launched it.<br /><br />1. The heatshield, deacceleration system and Lander were not set up for direct entry. The heat shield still would have been heavier and the parachute system bigger and heavier.<br /><br />2. The "cruise stage" would be bigger. Unlike MER, the viking lander avionics couldn't control the whole spacecraft stack. More avionics would be needed on the "cruise stage". Also "cruise stage" would be larger like MSL and therefore heavier. MER cruise stage is not a valid comparsion. <br /><br />3. No other vehicle had a 14 foot fairing.<br /><br />

 

[jimfromnsf]

"Your very specific claim was that the skycrane system will be used in another Mars surface mission. The link you provided has zero backup for your assertion and zero backup for any new Mars surface mission. Studies do not amount to a mission. Your link shows nothing but vaporware. "<br /><br />I am not going to post SBU or ITAR documents just to make you happy. <br /><br />Take my word for it <i>gratuitous insult deleted</i>. <br /><br />

 

[JonClarke]

Jim<br /><br />G&R is correct. Your link does not say that the skycrane apprach is being considered for the proposed missions. <br /><br />There are public documents the discuss the issue of skycrane for at least some of these missions. How about to provide links to, or summaries of some of these?<br /><br />Also note that None of those missions have been approved. There is no certainty that any of those missions will fly (although I hope so). At most the skycrane option for the missions is one approach that may, or may not be used for them.<br /><br />Lastly, and most importantly, <b>desist from using insulting and belittling language or snide comments directed at other members of the forum<b>. I have just edited a second of your posts for unacceptable language. Any further offences against any other poster will result in a week's suspension.<br /><br />Jon</b></b> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[jimfromnsf]

the Mars Astrobiology Field Laboratory uses the same rover as MSL. Therefore it uses the same lander. <br /><br />There are no missions approved after MSL because it is too soon in the process. The 2011 mars scout is still at the study level

 

[gunsandrockets]

<Well, regarding the vikings. They were not cheap. They were big and heavy. I think about double the size of Spirit or Opportunity.><br /><br /><I was under the impression that Spirit and Opportunity rovers were at the weight limit of the air bags, and that a skycrane system idea was for larger payloads. /><br /><br />Comparing the surface missions...<br /><br /><br /> <br />Viking mission: surface mass 572 kg, heat shield diameter 3.5 meters, powered soft landing.<br /> <br />MER mission: surface mass 533 kg, heat shield diameter 2.65 meters, airbag landing system.<br /> <br />MSL mission: surface mass 775 kg, heat shield diameter 4.5 meters, skycrane landing system. <br />

 

[JonClarke]

Unless of course MSL crashes and burns, in which there will be a revival of some of the alternative concepts.<br /><br />Do you know if any field tests of the skycrane system have been carried out or are scheduled to be carried out?<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

There is an artist's impression here of a MSR system being landed by a "skycrane".<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

This quad plot mentions that the MSL EDL will be used for the planned astrobiology rover.<br /><br />It only took a few minutes to find this public information.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[jimfromnsf]

They will be doing some testing of the concept but without the descent stage

 

[holmec]

nice presentation Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[jimfromnsf]

"iking mission: surface mass 572 kg, heat shield diameter 3.5 meters, powered soft landing.<br /><br />MER mission: surface mass 533 kg, heat shield diameter 2.65 meters, airbag landing system.<br /><br />MSL mission: surface mass 775 kg, heat shield diameter 4.5 meters, skycrane landing system. "<br /><br />Those are misleading wrt MSL. <br /><br />775 kq is the MSL rover, it doesn't include the descent stage, which still "lands". <br /><br />MER rover was 185 kg of the 533kg<br /><br />Viking lander and payload were combined

 

[3488]

NASA's Mars polar explorer delivered to launch site<br />NASA/JPL NEWS RELEASE<br />Posted: May 8, 2007<br /><br />A U.S. Air Force C-17 cargo aircraft carried NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander spacecraft Monday, May 7, from Colorado to Florida, where Phoenix will start a much longer trip in August. <br /><br />After launch, Phoenix will land on a Martian arctic plain next spring. It will use a robotic digging arm and other instruments to determine whether the soil environment just beneath the surface could have been a favorable habitat for microbial life. Studies from orbit suggest that within arm's reach of the surface, the soil holds frozen water. <br /><br />"This is a critical milestone for our mission," said Peter Smith of the University of Arizona, Tucson, principal investigator for Phoenix. "Our expert engineering team has completed assembly and testing of the spacecraft. The testing shows our instruments are capable of meeting the high-level requirements for the mission." <br /><br />Workers have been assembling and testing the spacecraft for more than a year in Denver. "We're excited to be going back to Mars," said Ed Sedivy, Phoenix program manager at Lockheed Martin Space Systems Co., Denver. "Assembly, integration and testing of the spacecraft have gone very well. We delivered Phoenix stowed inside its back shell and it will stay in that configuration until it lands softly on Mars." <br /><br />A Delta II launch vehicle will start Phoenix on its longer trip from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, Fla. The earliest possible launch time will be Aug. 3, at 5:35 a.m. EDT. Opportunities for energy-efficient launches to Mars come about every two years. Orbital geometries of Mars and Earth make this year particularly favorable for sending a lander to far-northern Mars to arrive when sunshine is at a maximum there. <br /><br />"The arctic plains are the right place for the next step in Mars exploration, and this is the right time to go there," said Leslie Tamppari, Phoenix project s <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[brellis]

Ancillary question - what can Phoenix teach the MER's once it lands and begins performing its science? Could Phoenix establish some life-indicators to be confirmed by one of the MER's? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><em><strong>I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better.</strong></em></font> </p> </div>

 

[3488]

Good point Brellis.<br /><br />If the MERs are still operating then (would not rule it out, given their superb performance & longevity, not to mention the calibre of the MER teams at JPL), than yes I am sure that the MPL data, will be used alongside the MERs. <br /><br />Also I am sure that it will be compared to Mars Pathfinder & the Viking landers too & the MERs if one or both have ceased operating by then. If MPL lands successfully, it will be the sixth location seen in detail at ground level (although the MERs obviously are fully mobile).<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[h2ouniverse]

Hi all,<br /><br />By the way, does anybody (insider or outsider) know whether Phoenix instruments have been tested versus real Earth-extremophiles? E.g. those slow-metabolism long-lived bacteria recently discovered in our polar caps? Would they be able to detect their presence?<br />Regards