Pluto moon Charon producing ice geysers???????

[h2ouniverse]

Hi Andrew,<br /><br />I have computed few weeks ago the typical wobbles induced by Nix and Hydra on the CoG of Pluto+Charon. That gave about 0.6 km. That is quite low so I am afraid this cannot translate into significant tidal effect, even by despinning the Pluto+Charon pair. (for comparison Jupiter is toggled by several tens of km by its moons !!)<br />Do you know a formula that can give an order of magnitude of the transferable power?<br /><br />Best Regards<br /><br />-Hope you are not impacted by large liquid layers in England-

 

[MeteorWayne]

I'm surprised it's that much! I thought the kids were quite tiny, and relatively far away.<br /><br />Can you give us some idea of the data (mass/orbit) that you used in the calculations? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[h2ouniverse]

Sure,<br /><br /> charon // nix //hydra<br />mass in kg//1,52E+21//5,35E+16 //9,89E+16<br />period in s//551836,8 //-742674(*)// -662606(*)<br />distance in km (**) //19571 // 48675 // 64780<br />pluto mass: 1.31e22kg<br />(*) synodic period vs the Pluto+Charon pair<br />(**) distance to Pluto's CoG; an approximation for Nix, Hydra as they are actually orbiting the S/S CoG, not Pluto.<br />I have neglected orbits eccentricity and inclinations, both very close to 0. I assumed a density of 1.2 for Nix, Hydra and average radii of 22 and 27 km.<br /><br />This results for the 4-body subsystem CoG in a rose-shaped curve all around Pluto+Charon CoG (located at about 2280 km from Pluto's CoG), deviating from it between 250m and 650m.<br /><br />This being said, tidal effects might be amplified due to the potential resonances (synodic periods: 4:3 and 5:4 respectively). The subsystem may be in a 1:4:6 Laplace resonance scheme.<br /><br />Best regards.

 

[3488]

It seems strange to me that Nix & Hydra are massive enough to do that.<br /><br />There does appear to be something peculiar to Charon itself.<br /><br />There does appear to be a large 'circular' feature on Charon.<br /><br />HST observations seem to suggest the Nix & Hydra are made of the same stuff as Charon.<br /><br />Hydra appears moderately 'large' at about 160 km across, where as Nix is considerably smaller,<br />perhaps 50 km across.<br /><br />Further observations will pin their densities down. 1.2 appears about right, unless they are like<br />Saturn's Hyperion, which is only just over half the density of water ice <br />(ice rubble pile with probable internal voids & caverns).<br /><br />This is going to be interesting.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[keermalec]

Water is a very abundant substance in our solar system and probably in the universe as well. This is due to the fact that hydrogen is the most abundant element in the Universe and Oxygen is the third, and when they meet they provide one of the most exothermic chemical reactions known: therefore there is a lot of water in the universe... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>“An error does not become a mistake until you refuse to correct it.” John F. Kennedy</em></p> </div>

 

[h2ouniverse]

I had assumed less than 60km of diameter for Hydra. If diameter is as high as 160km, then mass will be about 2.5e18kg, and the toggling of Pluto+Charon CoG would become less negligible and reach 12km.<br /><br />This being said, I agree with you that it should not be enough to transfer energy to Charon...<br /><br />Best regards.

 

[robnissen]

<font color="yellow">Water is a very abundant substance in our solar system and probably in the universe as well.</font><br /><br />Uh, yes and no. My post was about "liquid water," not "water." Considering that liquid water only has a termperature range of around 100 C (depending on pressure), I still stand by my statement that the amount of "liquid water" in our solar system is amazing. But you are right, in terms of solids, liquids and gases, there is undoubtably a lot of water within and without the solar system.

 

[h2ouniverse]

Hi Keermalec,<br />I recently updated a table of prospects for water I had initiated in another thread<br />Regards.

 

[chyten]

You put "Yes" for Triton -- but IIRC Triton geysers spit out liquid nitrogen, and not water?

 

[3488]

Hi chyten.<br /><br />Good point.<br /><br />Yes, the geysers do erupt liquid nitrogen. However, there are flows & softened features, not to<br />mention that there are relatively few impact craters, none particularly large<br />(the largest seen to date only 27 KM across).<br /><br />These dark 'blotches' almost certainly point to either liquid water that erupted & froze<br />in the minus 235 Celsius / 38 Kelvin temps, or are 'blobs' of warmer ice that came <br />to the surface (also seen on the Jupiter moon Europa).<br /><br />Not to mention 'frozen lakes'.<br /><br />I have put three images on this thread to show visual aspects of frozen water, that was <br />liquid not so long ago (geologically).<br /><br />Below. Dark blotches & smoother plains on Triton, imaged by Voyager 2.<br /><br />NASA / JPL.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[3488]

Frozen lake on Triton.<br /><br />Imaged by Voyager 2.<br /><br />NASA / JPL.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[3488]

Cantaloupe terrain, rilles & smooth areas on Triton. <br /><br />Imaged by Voyager 2. <br /><br />NASA / JPL. <br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[h2ouniverse]

Fantastic pictures Andrew!<br />I was aware of the cantaloupe aspect but had not seen the first 2 of your 3 pictures (the frozen lakes).<br />Anyway, when there is cryovolcanism, even if what is erupted is not water, the propects for presence of water is increased. Indeed this means there is some internal heat. And a few hundredths of a W/m² are enough to keep a liquid layer (*) beneath some kms or tens of kms of H2O ice.<br /><br />(*) Exception is for a very large body like Callisto if and when pressure is high enough to prevent from liquefaction. But should not be the case neither for Triton nor for Charon<br /><br />Best regards.

 

[3488]

Hi Joel,<br /><br /><br />I agree with you regarding liquid water.<br /><br />I think that Triton may still have fossil heat, that was generated, during<br />the capture process.<br /><br />Impact cratering suggests this may have happened as recently as 500 million years ago<br />(say recently, but is only about 11% of the age of the solar system).<br /><br />Quite like the view below.<br /><br />Triton frozen lake perspective view.<br /><br />Using actual Voyager 2 images.<br /><br />Andrew Brown.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[rhm3]

H2Ouniverse, very interesting chart. However, where did you hear that Varuna has crystalline ice? As far as I know, Varuna is a dark, red (likely old) body.

 

[h2ouniverse]

Apologies.<br />When I corrected the chart, I included Varuna in the list just for its diameter [that had increased], not for liquid water prospect. And I modified Quaoar and EL61 statuses to account for recent discoveries of cristalline ice. The cut and paste in the excel file resulted in undue upgrading of Varuna to "probable". I will correct it.<br /><br />This being said its elongated shape, shattered structure and its fast spin suggest it has had or still has a large internal heat... Even though the surface is dark,who knows how the interior is?<br /><br />Btw the large uncertainty on the diameter of almost all TNOs renders this list very dynamic...<br /><br />I hope big TNOs will be announced by Mike Brown soon... [please M. Brown, find binary or triple systems!]

 

[h2ouniverse]

Andrew,<br /><br />I was just realizing that given the orientation of the rotation axis of the plutonian subsystem, at a given time, the axis should point towards the Sun and leave a part of the bodies in quasi-permanent shadow. This situation should last 3 times more than for Uranus. During this episode, the thermal gradient on bodies without atmosphere [between dayface and night face] might generate significant surface strains and stress releases. CTE of ice is large indeed.<br /><br />Andrew, to your knowledge of Uranian moons, do you know whether this can contribute to cracking the surface?<br /><br />Regards.

 

[3488]

Hi Joel,<br /><br />I suppose it could.<br /><br />But its worth bearing in mind that the day - night difference will not be as savage as <br />on the Moon (+117 C afternoon, -167 C dawn on equator) or <br />Mercury (+427 C noon @ perihelion - 186 dawn on equator).<br /><br />With Pluto, Charon, Nix & Hydra, their base line temperatures are already cryonic,<br />even during the long 'Summer' days.<br /><br />With what I have seen of the Uranus moons, there is nothing that suggests to me, cracking<br />due to surface temperature variations. True, Miranda, Ariel, Titania & Oberon have all<br />seen varying degrees of geological activity, Miranda & Ariel greatly, Titania less so, but still<br />quite extensive & Oberon moderately so<br />(interesting that Umbriel appears unevolved), they can be explained by,<br /><br />1). Tidal fracturing (Miranda & Ariel, perhaps had eccentric orbits in the distant past).<br />2). Impact of ancient co-orbitals (could be how Miranda got its coronae).<br />3). Cryovolcanism (Ariel, Titania & Oberon, softening of surface features, dark crater floors).<br /><br />My basic appraisal of where we stand with our understanding of the<br />Pluto moons & why I think so, with what we have already seen elsewhere..<br /><br />Charon is about the same size as Saturn's Dione, Tethys & Uranus's Ariel & Umbriel.<br />Four objects we have already seen well & all very different. Clearly Dione & Ariel are<br />the most highly evolved, Tethys less so & Umbriel hardly at all. Charon, with the information<br />to hand, appears to be at the upper end, possibly above Ariel, maybe more like <br />the much smaller Saturn moon Enceladus.<br /><br />Nix, appears to be in the same size bracket as the Saturn moons Helene & Telesto. <br />Helene appears to be a cratered ice lump & Telesto is <br />remarkabley smooth <br />with few craters & a few large ice boulders. My guess, Nix will be cratered.<br /><br />Hydra, is in the same size bracke <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[h2ouniverse]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>[OLDER POST JULY 2007: ...charon // nix //hydra mass in kg//1,52E+21//5,35E+16 //9,89E+16 period in s//551836,8 //-742674(*)// -662606(*) distance in km (**) //19571 // 48675 // 64780 pluto mass: 1.31e22kg (*) synodic period vs the Pluto+Charon pair (**) distance to Pluto's CoG; an approximation for Nix, Hydra as they are actually orbiting the S/S CoG, not Pluto. I have neglected orbits eccentricity and inclinations, both very close to 0. I assumed a density of 1.2 for Nix, Hydra and average radii of 22 and 27 km. This results for the 4-body subsystem CoG in a rose-shaped curve all around Pluto+Charon CoG (located at about 2280 km from Pluto's CoG), deviating from it between 250m and 650m. This being said, tidal effects might be amplified due to the potential resonances (synodic periods: 4:3 and 5:4 respectively). The subsystem may be in a 1:4:6 Laplace resonance scheme. Best regards. <br />Posted by h2ouniverse</DIV></p><p>&nbsp;There has been an update of masses and diameters for Nix and Hydra http://arxiv.org/abs/0712.1261. But no sign of mean motion resonance, even though the periods are really close to a 6:4:1 pattern.</p><p>With these values, I now come to a toggling of the Pluto+Charon CoG of almost +/- 4km. Not that negligible finally...</p>