Pluto Perspectives- Part 3 - Inclination

[MeteorWayne]

In this post the 27 largest known objects in the solar system are sorted by inclination.<br /><br />I should point out (and will go back and insert edits in the previous posts to address this point) that all orbital elements: eccentricity, inclination, period, "a" (semimajor axis of the ellitical orbit), etc., are osculating elements. That means that they change as the bodies in the solar system interact gravitationally with each other. There are other factors than gravity, but they are extremely small. So, in a sense, the precise value of any of these is a snapshot in time. The changes are not large enough to affect the grouping of the objects in these lists to any large degree.<br />In fact, the solar system barycenter, (center of mass of the solar system) which is one of the foci of an object's orbital ellipse moves within the interior of the sun in response to the position of all the other planets and "stuff", but primarily the Giants.<br /><br />Edit 9/8{ Thanks Tony873004 for this correction "Actually, it is exterior to the Sun. The Sun / Jupiter barycenter is: <br />r(solar orbit) = Mass(jupiter) * r(jupiter orbit) / Mass(sun)=1.9e27kg*778412000000m/19..e30kg = 743,207,437m. This exceeds the Sun's radius which is 696,000,000m. The other planets sometimes add or subtract from this value. }<br /><br /><br />OK, the 27 largest, sorted by inclination.<br />First column, name; second is my <font color="yellow">arbitrary</font>class. I did change one hot cubewano (2002 UX 25) to "not hot" based on it's position in the list, but that's minor, and could change in final analysis) See part 1 for definitions; finally, inclination to the nearest degree.<br />I'd rather see solar system inclination based on Jupiter's orbit rather than earth's, since it is 72% of the non-solar mass of the system, but since it's only a 1.8 degree difference it's not too important.<br />One day I shall do the rather extensive calculations to accurately convert that infomation to a Jovian bas <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[mikeemmert]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>One day I shall do the rather extensive calculations to accurately convert that infomation to a Jovian based inclination.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote>Before you do all that calculation, read this <img src="/images/icons/cool.gif" /> :<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invariable_plane

 

[MeteorWayne]

Thanx!<br />By brain is relieved! <br />Or it was, till I read it and realized it really doesn't include the inclination values for the planets, never mind the rest of the 27 largest objects.<br /><br />But it does give me a better starting point.<br /><br />The thanx still count!<br /><br />MW <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[mikeemmert]

Ah - read that again. It <i>does</i> include the inclinations of all the planets. That's why it's called "the invariant plane. The planets shuffle amongst it, but the plane stays the same. The people who came up with this wanted to use Jupiter's plane, but this works better. <br /><br />Keep working on inclinations, though. I think this is a major key to unlocking some really important mysteries that nobody has a firm grasp of yet.<br /><br />It sounds like you were very close to making an independent discovery of this. Hope I wasn't a spoiler <img src="/images/icons/blush.gif" /> !

 

[MeteorWayne]

I know that it does. What it does not provide is an easy way to convert from the listed "ecliptic, earth based" inclinations available, to the invariant reference frame. It's not as simple of adding or subtracting some fixed amount. Once you change the reference frame, the longitude of perihelion (one measure for the alignment of the orbit) makes a huge difference. <br />So it still makes my brain hurt <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[mikeemmert]

"No pain, no gain" <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <br /><br />"Pain is a part of wrestling." - Comment made by the local assistant "sports"caster announcing the amateur challeng match ($500.00 just to get in the ring), as professional Killer Tim Brooks dissassembled an amateur who tried to put him in the guillotene. <img src="/images/icons/shocked.gif" /><br /><br />"Brooks doesn't have to do that! He's a GREAT wrestler!" (See above) <img src="/images/icons/blush.gif" /><br /><br />(P.S. I wrestled in high school, so I know the difference; I used to enjoy the amateur challenge match because this wrestling was real. Brooks cured me of that [no I didn't go for the $500.00, I know these guys are gay sometimes <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ]).

 

[tony873004]

<i>In fact, the solar system barycenter, (center of mass of the solar system) which is one of the foci of an object's orbital ellipse moves within the interior of the sun in response to the position of all the other planets and "stuff", but primarily the Giants. </i><br /><br />Actually, it is exterior to the Sun. The Sun / Jupiter barycenter is:<br />r(solar orbit) = Mass(jupiter) * r(jupiter orbit) / Mass(sun)=1.9e27kg*778412000000m/19..e30kg = 743,207,437m. This exceeds the Sun's radius which is 696,000,000m. The other planets sometimes add or subtract from this value.<br /><br />Here's a plot of the solar system's barycenter over the course of about 1 century. It inculdes the pull of all 8 planets plus Pluto. For scale, the Sun is included (pale yellow circle).<br /><br />http://orbitsimulator.com/BA/ssBarycenter.GIF<br /><br />You are right when you say "primarily the Giants". With Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune remove from the simulation, this chaotic pattern reduces to a pixel. I need to zoom in a lot more to view the Sun's changing position due to gravitational effects from the other 4 planets.<br />

 

[MeteorWayne]

Thanks for catching that.<br />I just got around to starting the calculations and realized my error.<br /><br />Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[mikeemmert]

Tony;<br /><br />Thanks for addressing this extremely widely held misconception, which I held myself.

 

[jakethesnake]

Was just wondering were is "Pluto Perspectives- Part 4"? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong></strong> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Was busy all weekend with the major patio project I spoke of. Man am I sore!!! Carted 1.5 tons of wall stones from street to back yard. <br /><br />I should post it today, just fiddling with format, and adding up to the minute planetary data to my master chart for easier analysis. <br />Also, adding "Jake " <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>