Possible Supernova?

perseus1 · Jan 13, 2009

A friend and I were at my lakehouse on 1-2-09. We went out to the pier around 11pm to watch the meteor shower. The sky was clear and unobstructed. We were facing almost due south and laying in lounge chairs which gave us a great view. Around 1:30am looking almost directly straight up (about 75 to 85 degrees in altitude),we both saw a sudden circular staionary white to yellow flash which started out small but grew to about 1/3 the size of the moon. It then slowly shrunk and went out, all the while staying circular and in a stationary position. This flash lasted about 3 to 4 seconds. It was brighter than Venus has been in our skies. My lakehouse is on Lake Marion near Summerton, SC. We were looking near Regulus and the constellation Leo. I first thought that maybe it could have been the space station firing their rockets to correct their orbit. I then saw a video (on Space.com) on measuring distance of supernovas by the light intensity. At the very beginning of the video on the title page it showed what looked like supernovas. These were exactly what we saw looked like.

kg · Jan 13, 2009

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>.... This flash lasted about 3 to 4 seconds. It was brighter than Venus has been in our skies. Posted by perseus1</DIV> I don't think it could have been a super nova.  A super nova would have been visible for much longer than a few seconds.  According to this wiki article , super nova SN 1054 (which created the crab nebula) was visible for 23 days IN DAYLIGHT!  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SN_1054Could it have been sunlight reflecting off a satellite?

MeteorWayne · Jan 13, 2009

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>A friend and I were at my lakehouse on 1-2-09. We went out to the pier around 11pm to watch the meteor shower. The sky was clear and unobstructed. We were facing almost due south and laying in lounge chairs which gave us a great view. Around 1:30am looking almost directly straight up (about 75 to 85 degrees in altitude),we both saw a sudden circular staionary white to yellow flash which started out small but grew to about 1/3 the size of the moon. It then slowly shrunk and went out, all the while staying circular and in a stationary position. This flash lasted about 3 to 4 seconds. It was brighter than Venus has been in our skies. My lakehouse is on Lake Marion near Summerton, SC. We were looking near Regulus and the constellation Leo. I first thought that maybe it could have been the space station firing their rockets to correct their orbit. I then saw a video (on Space.com) on measuring distance of supernovas by the light intensity. At the very beginning of the video on the title page it showed what looked like supernovas. These were exactly what we saw looked like. Posted by perseus1</DIV> The most likely explanation is an out of control Iridium Satellite, though 1:30 AM seems like a bad time for that (Most at this time of year are in the evening or morning before 8PM or after 6 AM). However, one that is no longer under control can produce flares at unusual times; I've seen quite a few that were not predicted due to that.They are the only satellites that get brighter than Venus, and move slowly enough that unless you look closely, they appear the be stationary. They are very commonly reported just as you describe. If you can be more specific about where on Lake Marion? I see it's quite large. Are you on the eastern or western end, and on the north or south shore? Then I can check to see if there was one of the Iridium planes (there are 6 satellites in each of 11 planes) was nearly overhead at that time. The ISS firing it's rockets is nearly invisible (since it's pure Hydrogen and Oxygen) so that is very unlikely. If you go here:http://heavens-above.com/LocationFromGoogleMaps.aspx?lat=33.49102&lng=-80.34439&loc=Summerton&alt=38&tz=ESTa and move the marker to your location (just double click on the correct spot, I just took a wild guess) then give me that Latitude and Longitude I can do some more checking for you if you wish. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

shuttle_guy · Jan 13, 2009

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>A friend and I were at my lakehouse on 1-2-09. We went out to the pier around 11pm to watch the meteor shower. The sky was clear and unobstructed. We were facing almost due south and laying in lounge chairs which gave us a great view. Around 1:30am looking almost directly straight up (about 75 to 85 degrees in altitude),we both saw a sudden circular staionary white to yellow flash which started out small but grew to about 1/3 the size of the moon. It then slowly shrunk and went out, all the while staying circular and in a stationary position. This flash lasted about 3 to 4 seconds. It was brighter than Venus has been in our skies. My lakehouse is on Lake Marion near Summerton, SC. We were looking near Regulus and the constellation Leo. I first thought that maybe it could have been the space station firing their rockets to correct their orbit. I then saw a video (on Space.com) on measuring distance of supernovas by the light intensity. At the very beginning of the video on the title page it showed what looked like supernovas. These were exactly what we saw looked like. Posted by perseus1</DIV> You are describing what can bee seen when a satellite or spent upper stage propellant tank vents or explodes. The stages always vent after they complete their final burn. The older ones often explode if they are not vented for any reason. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

shuttle_guy · Jan 13, 2009

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The most likely explanation is an out of control Iridium Satellite, though 1:30 AM seems like a bad time for that (Most at this time of year are in the evening or morning before 8PM or after 6 AM). However, one that is no longer under control can produce flares at unusual times; I've seen quite a few that were not predicted due to that.They are the only satellites that get brighter than Venus, and move slowly enough that unless you look closely, they appear the be stationary. They are very commonly reported just as you describe. If you can be more specific about where on Lake Marion? I see it's quite large. Are you on the eastern or western end, and on the north or south shore? Then I can check to see if there was one of the Iridium planes (there are 6 satellites in each of 11 planes) was nearly overhead at that time. The ISS firing it's rockets is nearly invisible (since it's pure Hydrogen and Oxygen) so that is very unlikely. If you go here:http://heavens-above.com/LocationFromGoogleMaps.aspx?lat=33.49102&lng=-80.34439&loc=Summerton&alt=38&tz=ESTa and move the marker to your location (just double click on the correct spot, I just took a wild guess) then give me that Latitude and Longitude I can do some more checking for you if you wish. Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV> Actually the ISS thusters use hypergolic propellants not H2 and O2,  The burns are visible. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

MeteorWayne · Jan 13, 2009

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> Actually the ISS thusters use hypergolic propellants not H2 and O2,  The burns are visible. Posted by shuttle_guy</DIV> I was refeering to a boost, not the thrusters. I doubt the thrusters would be magnitude -5

<div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

shuttle_guy · Jan 14, 2009

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I was refeering to a boost, not the thrusters. I doubt the thrusters would be magnitude -5

Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>The ISS re-boost is performed by the thrusters. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

MeteorWayne · Jan 14, 2009

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The ISS re-boost is performed by the thrusters. Posted by shuttle_guy</DIV>Thanx, I didn't realize that. Have you ever seen them from the ground? I can't imagine they are brighter than mag -5.And just a few points related to the OP, the ISS motion is quite rapid, so if any light from there lasted more than a few seconds, the motion would be wquite apparent. Also the description of a fade up, bright peak, and fade down is exactly how an Iridium flare appears. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

BoJangles · Jan 14, 2009

Could it just be the case of a meteorite coming in at exactly the angle of observation and burning up ?  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -------------- Let me start out with the standard disclaimer ... I am an idiot, I know almost nothing, I haven’t taken calculus, I don’t work for NASA, and I am one-quarter Bulgarian sheep dog. With that out of the way, I have several stupid questions... *** A few months blogging can save a few hours in research *** </div>

MeteorWayne · Jan 14, 2009

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Could it just be the case of a meteorite coming in at exactly the angle of observation and burning up ?  Posted by Manwh0re</DIV> No, 3 to 4 seconds is far too long for a meteoroid heading straight at you. It would be possible for one just grazing the atmosphere, but they would not be staionary, rather they would be covering the sky practically from horizon to horizon.Just as a reference, I have seen exactly 3 point meteors (that is the term for what you descibed) out of over 12,000 meteors in over 1000 hours in my 14 years of scientific meteor observing. Pretty rare.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

BoJangles · Jan 14, 2009

Wow nice, I personally look forward to the day I get my very own amateur telescope

in fact I’ve never looked through anything more than binoculars when it comes to the sky ( Haley’s comet ), though I’d love to start.Yeah, it’s easy to imagine how rare these point meteors would be, when you consider what a precise angle these things would have enter on, the longer the tail the more precise it would have to be, minus the taper of the trail.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -------------- Let me start out with the standard disclaimer ... I am an idiot, I know almost nothing, I haven’t taken calculus, I don’t work for NASA, and I am one-quarter Bulgarian sheep dog. With that out of the way, I have several stupid questions... *** A few months blogging can save a few hours in research *** </div>

MeteorWayne · Jan 14, 2009

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Wow nice, I personally look forward to the day I get my very own amateur telescope

in fact I’ve never looked through anything more than binoculars when it comes to the sky ( Haley’s comet ), though I’d love to start.Yeah, it’s easy to imagine how rare these point meteors would be, when you consider what a precise angle these things would have enter on, the longer the tail the more precise it would have to be, minus the taper of the trail.   Posted by Manwh0re</DIV> That's one of the nice things about meteor watching. You don't need any equipment other than a blanket or a reclining lounger. That's not to say I don't have some; I have a tape recorder to enter my obsevations, a string to check meteor alignment, a talking watch, some pencils, etc. But those just make it easier for me to record scientific information, they aren't necessary

Yes point meteors have to be very precise. These days, in about 99% of the cases when you see a quick flash from the sky, it is a glint off of a satellite or rocket body.The Iridiums are a bit different, since the process takes a few seconds as the spot of sunlight reflected off the antenna sweeps past you on the ground.Have you ever seen an Iridium? They can be as bright as -8 or -9, tens of rimes brighter than Venus at it's best. It's quite impressive to see that in the sky! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

perseus1 · Jan 14, 2009

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The most likely explanation is an out of control Iridium Satellite, though 1:30 AM seems like a bad time for that (Most at this time of year are in the evening or morning before 8PM or after 6 AM). However, one that is no longer under control can produce flares at unusual times; I've seen quite a few that were not predicted due to that.They are the only satellites that get brighter than Venus, and move slowly enough that unless you look closely, they appear the be stationary. They are very commonly reported just as you describe. If you can be more specific about where on Lake Marion? I see it's quite large. Are you on the eastern or western end, and on the north or south shore? Then I can check to see if there was one of the Iridium planes (there are 6 satellites in each of 11 planes) was nearly overhead at that time. The ISS firing it's rockets is nearly invisible (since it's pure Hydrogen and Oxygen) so that is very unlikely. If you go here:http://heavens-above.com/LocationFromGoogleMaps.aspx?lat=33.49102&lng=-80.34439&loc=Summerton&alt=38&tz=ESTa and move the marker to your location (just double click on the correct spot, I just took a wild guess) then give me that Latitude and Longitude I can do some more checking for you if you wish. Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV> You were pretty close the coordinates are 33.5302 N and 80.3159 W. Thanks for the response.

BoJangles · Jan 15, 2009

Iridium Flares wow!!!http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=1PFUP5LPyuAhttp://au.youtube.com/watch?v=x1qkmrTIAKkhttp://au.youtube.com/watch?v=yulzAk25b10http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=RbuR4pLc9TEhttp://au.youtube.com/watch?v=bBG9m-ZvBf4 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -------------- Let me start out with the standard disclaimer ... I am an idiot, I know almost nothing, I haven’t taken calculus, I don’t work for NASA, and I am one-quarter Bulgarian sheep dog. With that out of the way, I have several stupid questions... *** A few months blogging can save a few hours in research *** </div>

shuttle_guy · Jan 15, 2009

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Thanx, I didn't realize that.Have you ever seen them from the ground? I can't imagine they are brighter than mag -5.......................</DIV>No I have not. I am certain you are correct about them not visible from the ground with out a telescope. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

MeteorWayne · Jan 15, 2009

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Iridium Flares wow!!!http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=1PFUP5LPyuAhttp://au.youtube.com/watch?v=x1qkmrTIAKkhttp://au.youtube.com/watch?v=yulzAk25b10http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=RbuR4pLc9TEhttp://au.youtube.com/watch?v=bBG9m-ZvBf4 Posted by Manwh0re</DIV> Even better than youtubes, get yer tail outside and see some in person. It's one of the most impressive man-made sights in the sky (of course not even coming close to a shuttle/rocket launch).Go to here: http://heavens-above.com/Select your location. The usual procedure I recommend is to first "select from database", and the after you have that, "select from map" to get a precise location. Once that is entered, AT THIS POINT SAVE THE PAGE, bookmark, favorite, or whatever your browser calls it. When you open the H-A page in the future, you should come right back to your location.The spot that Iridiums refelct the sun to the ground is quite small so two precise things are needed. One is your exact location (this step takes care of that).The other is time. If your watch is off by 30 seconds; guess what, you missed it. You need a watch that is accurate to within a few seconds. Since the average Iridium flare only lasts between 15 and 30 seconds, your timing must be precise. A pretty good source that most folks have is your cellphone. If you set a watch so that it matches the exact minute transition of time on your cellphone, that's reasonably accurate in my experience. Another source is the Heaven's above page; toward the bottom there is a "What time is it?" link which should get you within a second or two on a fast connection.Of course the third thing is knowing your sky good enough to know which direction is North, South, East-Northeast, etc.While that's not as much of a problem with a magnitude -8 flare, a magnitude 0 flare could be missed if you're not at least close to the right direction.The benefit of having your location in there, is you can see ISS passes for the next 10 days, several other satellites that or bright, and if you are curious a list of satellites visible any evening or morning.Get out there and do it.I urge perseus to do it as well. Once you have seen a bright Iridium flare, I'm sure you will see it matches what you observed quite well.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

BoJangles · Jan 15, 2009

Great thanks, i will definitly take your advice, and try my hand at sky watching 

<div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -------------- Let me start out with the standard disclaimer ... I am an idiot, I know almost nothing, I haven’t taken calculus, I don’t work for NASA, and I am one-quarter Bulgarian sheep dog. With that out of the way, I have several stupid questions... *** A few months blogging can save a few hours in research *** </div>

MeteorWayne · Jan 15, 2009

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Great thanks, i will definitly take your advice, and try my hand at sky watching

Posted by Manwh0re</DIV> Great. Let us know how you make out. And see if your observation of your first -6 to -8 Iridium flare doesn't match the original post in this thread.BTW, where are you? If you need any help setting up your H-A location let me know.I just printed out mine for the next week, During that time I have a series in the SSE just before 7PM, another series in the SSW around 5:30 PM, and another in the NNE at about 5:30 AM. You will note that, due to the alignment of the sun and the satellites, they tend to run in a group over a period of a week or so at the same location and the same time. That only applies to the active satellites that are under control, hence perfectly alaigned, hence predictable.there are also other Iridiums, which can flare just as bright that are out of control, or in parking orbits that can not be predicted, so are not listed on the H-A page. I suspect one of those is what perseus saw.Once you have seen a few, you will always be able to recognize them, as the ramp up and down in brightness is quite unmistakeable.Just as a side note, since there are 6 satellites in each plane, during my meteor observation sessions (when I note all satellites I see) they can be spotted at times not listed on the flare page. I will often see 3 in a row, separated by 9 minutes. The peak brightness may only be +4 or +3 for a few of them, but as you get familiar with them, they are pretty easy to spot. Due to their high orbit, they are very slow moving (hence the common report that they are stationary); much slower than the ISS. If you look at the same spot in the sky 9 minutes before and after the listed flare time, you can often spot one of them as a very faint satellite. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

kg · Jan 15, 2009

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Even better than youtubes, get yer tail outside and see some in person. It's one of the most impressive man-made sights in the sky (of course not even coming close to a shuttle/rocket launch).Go to here: http://heavens-above.com/Select your location.   Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV> The heavens above website gives coordinates for were to look in the sky for the flair.  Is there way to find this position on a star chart online?  Thanks for the link!

MeteorWayne · Jan 15, 2009

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The heavens above website gives coordinates for were to look in the sky for the flair.  Is there way to find this position on a star chart online?  Thanks for the link! Posted by kg</DIV>Well, the H-A site itself gives a sky chart, but depending on how well you know the sky, it's hard to say how much that will help you.the first thing you need to do is know where north is for you in the night sky. After that, the rest is easy. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

shuttle_guy · Jan 17, 2009

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The heavens above website gives coordinates for were to look in the sky for the flair.  Is there way to find this position on a star chart online?  Thanks for the link! Posted by kg</DIV>To understand where to look from the HeavensAbove coordinates:"ALT" is the distance above the horizon. 90 deg is directly above your head thus, say, 45 deg is half way between the horizon and directly over your head. Azimuth: 360 is due north and 180 is due south etc. Click on "ALT"  or "aximuth" to see a diagram on where to look. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

BoJangles · Jan 17, 2009

Hi MeteorWayne,I live here , though that isn't my house , its pretty close, in the same complex.A friend and i did exactly what you recommended last night, bookmarks and everything. though the only really things available were +4 mag satellites, not being discouraged we waited patently for the time to arrive, and about 1 hour before hand clouds started to drift over, at 10 minutes to the event, the entire sky was completely covered in clouds, bummer :/I'm curious though, would i have been able to see these +4 satellites unaided ? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -------------- Let me start out with the standard disclaimer ... I am an idiot, I know almost nothing, I haven’t taken calculus, I don’t work for NASA, and I am one-quarter Bulgarian sheep dog. With that out of the way, I have several stupid questions... *** A few months blogging can save a few hours in research *** </div>

shuttle_guy · Jan 17, 2009

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi MeteorWayne,I live here , though that isn't my house , its pretty close, in the same complex.A friend and i did exactly what you recommended last night, bookmarks and everything. though the only really things available were +4 mag satellites, not being discouraged we waited patently for the time to arrive, and about 1 hour before hand clouds started to drift over, at 10 minutes to the event, the entire sky was completely covered in clouds, bummer :/I'm curious though, would i have been able to see these +4 satellites unaided ? Posted by Manwh0re</DIV>Yes, but you need a very clear sky with no light polution. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

MeteorWayne · Jan 17, 2009

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Yes, but you need a very clear sky with no light polution. Posted by shuttle_guy</DIV> Yes, especially when you are starting I'd look for the brighter ones until you get a feel for the brightness. The ISS, when it is visible is an easy target since it is so bright and can be visible for about 6 minutes.BTW, if you click on the time in the Max ALtitude column, you will get several maps showing the satellite path. Then you can find the constellations it will pass through.Of course Iridium flares are even brighter, but last only seconds.Good luck!MW <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

AstroHurricane001 · Jan 31, 2009

By "circular", and "1/3 the size of the moon", did you actually mean apparent size (could you see a disk?) or just brightness? Iridium flares can shine as bright as mag. -9. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

Possible Supernova?

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