Problem with NASA radio signals going to Mars?

[nec208]

Why does NASA have a hard time the radio signals going to Mars?<br /><br />I thought space is a vacuum and that is why you can communicate billions of light years away.<br /><br />On earth you got trees,hills,mountains,buildings so on.And there is no vacuum so radio signals do not travel more than 50KM.<br /><br />If the earth was flat and so big it is billions of light years if gone by car to you came to the edge to you fall out or turn around that is how big it is .It will take you a billions of years to go by car at a speed of light and the earth is so flat no trees,hills,mountains,buildings so on.Will you be able to communicate more than 50KM no !! If it was that big and flat and a vacuum and no trees, hills, mountains, buildings so on than yes you can communicate billions of light years .<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[3488]

Actually NASA has no problems with getting Radio signals to Mars.<br /><br />They have been successful with this since Mariner 4 in 1969.<br /><br />In fact they have no problems with getting them into the outer solar system either.<br /><br />Time & resources of the Deep Space Network is the problem, not the technology involved.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[heyscottie]

It all has to do with the amount of power you can transmit!<br /><br />It is true that on earth there are problems such as physical obstacles, curvature of the earth, electromagnetic interference, and atmospheric attenuation. But on earth, as in space, the most important factor is still distance. This is because the power of radio waves decreases with the square of distance.<br /><br />The equation for surface area of a sphere is 4pi*r*r. As your distance (radius) increases, the area increases, too. The power received at any discrete receiver, then, is less and less. It is this fact that makes communication over longer distances more difficult, and makes more distant stars dimmer.

 

[MeteorWayne]

What are you talking about?<br />Radio signals have no problem going anywhere, much less our 3rd closest neighbor?<br /><br />Want to tell us what the heck you are talking about? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

And of course, s_g you are correct. Even NASCAR races get hit by the sun noise <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[3488]

Sorry, perhaps I should have been clearer. Yes Solar Conjuction can be as real pain,<br />with all of that extrsa 'radio noise' coming from our parent star.<br /><br />Apart from these brief periods, NASA hase no real trouble AFAIK.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[nec208]

It is true that on earth there are problems such as physical obstacles, curvature of the earth, electromagnetic interference, and atmospheric attenuation. But on earth, as in space, the most important factor is still distance. This is because the power of radio waves decreases with the square of distance. <br />====================<br /><br />How so 90% of space is made up of matter we cannot see or detect called dark matter.There is nothing to block or attenuate the radio signal 90% of the time.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[nec208]

The equation for surface area of a sphere is 4pi*r*r. As your distance (radius) increases, the area increases, too. The power received at any discrete receiver, then, is less and less. It is this fact that makes communication over longer distances more difficult, and makes more distant stars dimmer. <br /><br />----------------------------------------------<br /><br />That use a example you are in LA I'm in Mexico.When we are communicating picture the radio signal like a flashlight has you move a way the flashlight gets smaller and smaller to you cannot see it.But higher the transmitting power the bigger the light so you can see it that extra KM away.And other way is how could you receiver is at picking up this light.That say you have 2 humans one a normal human and and other a cyborg the normal human can see the flashlight 10KM and the cyborg 20KM.<br /><br /><br />So yes transmitting power and a good receiver is very good.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[jimfromnsf]

So why does this thread exist?

 

[nexium]

If a million watt transmitter illuminates a million square miles on our moon = very narrow beam transmitting antenna: We have one watt per square mile.<br />The same beam illuminating Mars and vicinity when Mars is 200 times farther away than the moon; that is 200 squared = 40,000 times more area, and thus the signal per square mile is reduced by 40,000 times = 25 microwatts per square mile, which requires a good receiving antenna and a good receiver on Mars. At much greater distances than Mars, the signal may be less than one nano watt per square mile = cannot be received at all unless the transmitter is more than one million watts and/or the transmitting antenna is larger, so as to produe a narrower beam, such as illuminating only 1000 square miles on the moon instead of one million square miles. Neil

 

[nexium]

Ham radio operators occasionally receive signals from a one watt transmitter at a distance of 20,000KM, so the 50KM you suggested is very pesimistic. Neil

 

[nexium]

Ham radio operators occasionally receive signals from a one watt transmitter at a distance of 20,000KM, so the 50KM you suggested is very pesimistic. Neil

 

[nec208]

If a million watt transmitter illuminates a million square miles on our moon = very narrow beam transmitting antenna: We have one watt per square mile. <br /><br />----------------------<br /><br /><br />Do not confuse earth radio propagation and radio space propagation .Space is made up of 90% of dark matter and wee cannot see or detect it.<br /><br />Space is a vacuum there is no aire or molecule to propagate sound waves all you can do is use a radio .A space shuttle has air in it.<br /><br />What ever xxxx watts = that many miles of radio propagation do not apply in space .<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[nec208]

So why does this thread exist? <br />=========================<br /><br />Because I don't know why NASA is having problems .I have some question and I don't have time to read a amateur radio book on understanding how radio waves work.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[jimfromnsf]

"Do not confuse earth radio propagation and radio space propagation"<br /><br />There is no difference<br /><br />"What ever xxxx watts = that many miles of radio propagation do not apply in space"<br /><br />It does so.<br />The fact that the shuttle has air in it has no bearing<br />

 

[jimfromnsf]

"I have some question and I don't have time to read a amateur radio book on understanding how radio waves work. "<br /><br />Do some reading before asking.

 

[dragon04]

<font color="yellow">Why does NASA have a hard time the radio signals going to Mars?</font><br /><br />What "hard time" are you talking about? We send and receive to and from Spirit and Opportunity (as well as orbital craft) on a daily basis.<br /><br />I'm not sure I understand the question unless you're talking about bandwidth. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

This thread is very close to being Phenomena fodder....<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[Mee_n_Mac]

<font color="yellow">Do not confuse earth radio propagation and radio space propagation .Space is made up of 90% of dark matter and wee cannot see or detect it. <br /><br />Space is a vacuum there is no aire or molecule to propagate sound waves all you can do is use a radio .A space shuttle has air in it. <br /><br />What ever xxxx watts = that many miles of radio propagation do not apply in space .</font><br /><br />For the most part the propagation of radio is the same in space as it is in the atmosphere. At certain frequencies the atmosphere will absorb (and convert into heat) radio waves propagating through it. At certain other frequencies this absorbtion is fairly small and, to no great surprise, we transmits signals in these bands. Thus you can use the inverse square law to get a good approximation of power density in either case, air or space. <br /><br />So far as I know dark matter plays no part at the distances we're talking about. You need to be sending signals between galaxies before you'd (might) have to think about it. And even then, short of something like gravitational lensing, I wonder if dark matter would ... well ... matter. It may not interact with radio/EM waves in any way. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>-----------------------------------------------------</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, <strong>STOP</strong> !</font></p> </div>

 

[lampblack]

<font color="yellow">This thread is very close to being Phenomena fodder.... </font><br /><br />My wife the therapist probably would say this thread suffers from disassociative disorder. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#0000ff"><strong>Just tell the truth and let the chips fall...</strong></font> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

So do most threads in Phenomena! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[nec208]

No space is a vacuum how can a vacuum attenuate a signal.<br /><br /><br />There is no point going on with this thread to you understand space is a vacuum and earth is not a vacuum .<br /><br />Get a radio and start transmitting in space than on earth and you see.<br /> <br />Also get a CB radio under some condition on HF frequencies you can bounce the radio wave and some one can talk from China to the US.You cannot do this by VHF or UHF because it does not bounce . <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Space is not a perfect vaccuum.<br /><br />Actually there's no point in continuing this thread until you educate youself on the propogation of radio signals, which you have stated you refuse to do.<br /><br />If you had the faintest clue, you would know thaere are many places to reflect radio signals including atmospheric and ionisphereic phenomena.<br /><br />But since you have stated you won't make the slightest effort to understand what you are ranting about, your rants are pretty much worthless, aren't they?<br /><br />10-4 Good Buddy? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[Mee_n_Mac]

<font color="yellow">No space is a vacume how can a vacuum attenuate a signal. </font><br /><br />Hmmm, it isn't that a vacuum or that an atmosphere attenuates a signal, it's that the signal spreads out as it travels. It spreads out pretty much the same in either of the 2 cases. Let me see if I can find a simple way to explain it .....<br /><br />Imagine you have a flashlight. You know from experience that the further away you are, the dimmer the flashlight appears to be. Yet you also know that it's always putting out the same power, the same amount of light. How can you reconcile the two ? <br /><br />Well first thing to understand is that the flashlight has a beam. Most of the light goes out to the front and slightly to the sides, nothing to the back. If you were to draw this beam it would resemble a cone with the small, pointy end at the flashlight and the opening, wider end aiming away from the flashlight to it's front. If you hold a pice of paper up to the flashlight, and at a close enough distance, you'll see a circle of light. If you move the paper away this circle of light gets larger and dimmer. Move it still farther away and now the circle is actually bigger than the piece of paper and the portion of the light that falls on the paper is dimmer still. Why is this ?<br /><br />Well in the first 2 cases you're collecting all the light that's being emitted by the flashlight but it's spread over a larger area in the second case (remember the circle got bigger). So the brightness of the light is really a measurement of how much light per square inch of the circle there is. The same amount of light spread over a bigger circle, a larger area (= more square inches) means the light you see is dimmer. Now take this beam idea and back really far away. Hold up the same size paper and ask yourself "How much light is falling on each square inch of the paper ? ". If the beam has spread out so that it's larger than the paper you not even getting all of <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>-----------------------------------------------------</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, <strong>STOP</strong> !</font></p> </div>

 

[vandivx]

nice post you made of this written off thread, goes to show that he who has the stuff can run circles around the put downers on this thread who would have done better if they simply didn't post, that's an option too<br /><br />you should look for position as teacher if you don't teach already <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>