Reaction of water on an electrical field

[garyf42]

If someone is surrounded by a field of electricity and they're hit with a blast from a water hose, what happens?<br /><br />Gary . . .<br />

 

[jackarcalon]

I believe someone who is surrounded by a strong electrical field has a surplus of electrons, that would strongly repel each other, but have no place to go. <br />A stream of water would provide a channel for the electrons to flow away.<br />Whoever is holding the hose would feel a strong electric shock.<br /><br />http://infinitethunder.tripod.com<br />arguably the best hard sf novel ever written

 

[billslugg]

Welcome Gary<br />If you were in contact with a high voltage source of electricity, like you were maybe hanging from a 100,000 volt high tension line, and you were not touching anything else, you would be OK. If someone hit you with a water hose, and it had a solid stream, then you, and they, would get a nasty shock. This is why firefighters alway use the 'fog' option when putting out fires around electrical equipment. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[garyf42]

Is there such a thing as an easy way to disrupt the electrons to get to individual? <br /><br />In a story I've written, a character is surrounded by an "energy" field and needs to be stopped.<br /><br />Gary . . .

 

[billslugg]

You're not speaking in scientific terms so it is sort of hard to understand what you are getting at. An energy field could be thermal. That would be - he is real hot. An energy field could be he has an excess of electrons, such as hanging from an energized wire. Then he would have an electric field around him. He could have electricity going through him, in which case he would have a magnetic field around him, but would be dead from the electricity. Those are really only about the only "fields" that there are that you could put around some one. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[garyf42]

Let me put it this way...<br /><br />In a story I'm writing, a being of eletrical/thermal energy takes over a human being. Let's assume it doesn't kill the person outright. By its nature the being gives off waves of electrical current.<br /><br />How do you stop it? Can you do it without killing the person? What effect do bullets have on it? Obviously, water isn't the answer! <br /><br />If there's a part of this I'm neglecting, feel free to let me know.<br /><br /><br />Gary . . .

 

[a_lost_packet_]

Hook it to a capacitator and "capture it."<br /><br />http://www.alaska.net/~natnkell/leyden.htm (Leyden Jar)<br /><br />* You could have a group of desperate characters find a way to make an ad hoc Leyden Jar out of local materials and then lure the "possessed" person into coming into contact with it.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[garyf42]

I have already gone past my knowledge of electricity and now I go one more step. Thank you, everyone who's helped with this. The initial idea of an energy being seemed easy enough, but stopping it has (as you can see) proven to be a trifle difficult!<br /><br />Further questions:<br /><br />Can the human become a circuit after being introduced to the energy being with its electrical current? Would that set up a magnetic field around them?<br /><br />Does the size of the Leyden jar matter in regards to the amount of electricity it can store?<br /><br />If the human comes in contact with the jar, would the energy being be drawn into the jar?<br /><br />Once the energy being is "in" the Leyden jar, how do you dispose of it? Can it get out or would it be sufficiently trapped?<br /><br />Thanks for all your help.<br /><br /><br />Gary . . .<br />

 

[Mee_n_Mac]

Given your idea is fiction then I have to ask if the "electricity" is being continuously generated or is it limited. If it's the later then your idea of draining off the current has some possibilities. You'd want to figure out if the person was positively or negatively charged and then perhaps have them step on a plate or grid oppositely charged. <br /><br />Is the charge concentrated on or in their body ? The latter make the rate of drain-off important which could be a plot device. The trick would be to "discharge" the person w/o killing them.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>-----------------------------------------------------</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, <strong>STOP</strong> !</font></p> </div>

 

[garyf42]

For the sake of making this work, I would say limited. Perhaps once the energy being took on a human form, it no longer was capable of sustaining continuously generated electricity.<br /><br />I'll have to give some thought to the positive/negative charge issue.<br /><br />The charge is concentrated in their body so yes, the drain-off would be quite tricky.<br />

 

[bmaone23]

Since it is fiction we are talking about, you could try to force the energy being out of the infected person by using a reverse polaron beam and cpture the energy in a circular linear accellerater thereby containing the being and forcing it to chase its tail for eternity (or so one hopes anyway). This polaron beam could then set up the situation whereby ALL the inherent Iron in the individual's body also becomes polarized effectively turning them into a magnet.

 

[billslugg]

Gary<br />The problem is that the terms you are using have no defined meaning in science therefore your questions cannot be answered in a scientific manner. <br /><br />There is no such thing as:<br />"a being"<br />"a being of electrical/thermal energy"<br />"taking over a human being"<br />"gives off waves of electrical current"<br />"stopping it"<br /><br />Your story will not ring true to a scientist unless it is consistent with science. Read up on electricity and understand the terms so that you can speak the language. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[a_lost_packet_]

I'd like to suggest you read the "Reality Dysfunction" series by Peter F. Hamilton. In it, there are beings similar to what you're talking about. <br /><br />There's also a great introduction to a very, very large and ancient "energy being" in Gregory Benford's "Galactic Center" series about halfway through the books. It resides near the center of the Galaxy feeding off the energy being generated by a SMBH. However, it's practically omnipotent and could only be effected by very large local events.<br /><br />For more "down to Earth" ideas, you can google articles relating to recent ideas on extraterrestrial life being birthed in cosmic dust/gas clouds. It's really interesting stuff and there were several threads on it on SDC.<br /><br />If you want to stick to "hard science" it's going to be difficult to do that with a being based on electricity. A conscious entity, as we know them, needs stability and predictability in order to exist. Electricity doesn't provide that type of medium. It's too involved with the quantum to make sense of in regards to serving as some lattice/network for conscious thought. A classic treatise on "quantum life" and biological processes can be found in the presentation/lecture "What is life?" by Erwin Schrodinger. You can download the full lecture online, just google it.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[lampblack]

Falling back on high school chemistry here... but wouldn't the answer to the question in the original post depend on whether the water is laced with electrolytes -- or not?<br /><br />I seem to recall that pure water can function as an insulator -- while salt water (or Gatorade, or any water with an electrolyte in solution) carries a current about as well as a copper wire.<br /><br />All this talk reminds me of a true story from my boyhood -- of the day a friend (having decided to relieve himself out-of-doors) proceeded to winkle on an electric fence.<br /><br />The electrical current immediately traveled the salty, golden highway -- all in all, quite a shocking experience for the ol' boy.<br /><br />Not to worry, though: during my 10th high school reunion, I learned that my friend had -- in fact -- managed to father children. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#0000ff"><strong>Just tell the truth and let the chips fall...</strong></font> </div>

 

[garyf42]

I'm wondering if I'm over-thinking all this. Bill, as you say, the terms aren't science related and have no meaning to base scientific answers on. This isn't a science fiction story, but a thriller with this entity making people's lives difficult.<br /><br />I came here because I was hoping to get some science knowledge in regards to disrupting an electrical field.<br /><br />The main issue is that an "alien" creature takes over (or possesses) the body of a human being and it has to be stopped. As there is no science to suggest such a thing is possible, it becomes impossible to discuss it from a scientific point of view.<br /><br />However, from a What If perspective, I thought I could get some guidance. And I have. Thank you.<br /><br /><br />Peace,<br />Gary . . .<br />

 

[Mee_n_Mac]

<font color="yellow">I seem to recall that pure water can function as an insulator -- while salt water (or Gatorade, or any water with an electrolyte in solution) carries a current about as well as a copper wire.</font><br /><br />You are coorect that pure H2O is a good insulator. You need some salts or metals in the water in order for it to conduct well. Getting back to the OP's story ... it's a bit more fictionish than "sci" but that's OK. Let's suspend our disbelief for a moment and try to steer him along a line that requires less suspension rather than more. Somehow a being has invaded some poor saps body and controls him/her to some degree. "We" seek to redivide to two. The being has some electrical properties that are more than perhaps strictly permissible by physics. Spraying the poor guy with salt water (or how about mercury) might provide a path to drain off normal electrical charge but before we go there, I'd ask why it just doesn't bleed off through his shoes or the air to the Earth like an excess charge of static electricity would ... like you'd get (and lose) if you held onto a Van de Graaff generator (and let go). Somehow the being "magically" keeps his charge in the human and until we can get a handle on this, it makes draining him potentially inconsistent. One thing a story needs is logical consistency even if it's not consistent with physical laws.<br /><br />Short of some renewing source ... the sap should eventually discharge all by himself over some "long" period of time. The better insulated (electrically) he is from the rest of the world, the longer some "being" could inhabit him before becoming neutralized.<br /><br />If there's some renewing source (this could be part of the story) then you could have the "being" cohabitating like ... well ... my divorced brother. Which is too say for too long a period of time. If the "being" depends on it's electrical charge to exist then the question I think that's been asked, is how do you <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>-----------------------------------------------------</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, <strong>STOP</strong> !</font></p> </div>

 

[billslugg]

An electric field is something I can deal with. If you take a person, hang them in the air so they are not touching anything, then you could load them up with electrons. I suggest a large Van de Graff generator. On a real dry winter day at very low temperature you could probably load them up to about 2 MegaVolts. At that level of voltage the charge would leak off in a minute or so unless replenished. But, while at 2MV you could make sparks come off your finger tips about 200 inches long. They would not be visible except in total darkness and you would have to limit the current to a few milliVolts, but I think it could be done. <br /><br />If the occupied body had this voltage and was going around zapping people, then he would also feel exactly the same current that was zapping the people unless: The alien had a jacket with tinfoil on the inside and outside. And he charged that up a a capacitor. Then he used an insulated wire to connect the outer plate to his adversary. I am certain you could kill very easily with this set up. But only if the occupied body is not part of the circuit. The monster would have to periodically reach the wire down and shove it into an electrical socket to recharge himself.<br /><br />His presence could be detected by the fact that your hair would stand on end as you got near him. He could be defeated simply by tossing Christmas tree icicles on him and shorting the wire to ground. Better yet would be to impale him with a tiny metal dart and puncture both plates of the capacitor. Then all of the energy he had filling the metal layers of his coat would short out and cause a small explosion.<br /><br />He could also be defeated by surrounding him with a Faraday shield, any metal shield that completely surrounds him. This would be the equivalent of a wooden spike to a vampire. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[Mee_n_Mac]

Shorting him out isn't the problem I think, it's doing it w/o BBQ'ing the human left behind that's the issue. Ideally I think "we" want to drain off the charge from as large a surface area as possible to get the current density down. A big conductive net might be called for. <br /><br />Also let's say the "being" is smart and dresses up the occupied human in a really good wetsuit. How do we reverse Tase the bro' w/o hurting him ? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>-----------------------------------------------------</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, <strong>STOP</strong> !</font></p> </div>

 

[garyf42]

One thing to keep in mind is that the solution has to be easy to create by common folk as this takes place in an office building with people who have bqackground in this sort of thing.<br /><br />I'm considering the Leyden jars because they're easy to make and would drain the "being" enough for the host to be incapacitated.<br /><br />Someone had brought up the point that if the "being" was an energy-based creature, it would probaby burn up the host in a very short time.<br /><br />It really seemed a lot simpler when I came up with the idea!<br /><br /><br />