Remember Phobos 2?

[CalliArcale]

I don't want to draw this thread too far off onto manned spaceflight; it's probably a topic for another thread. But it's debatable which nation was more concerned with its spacemen. I think the same sort of problems faced both the manned and unmanned space missions, however.<br /><br />Proton wasn't just not manrated, by the way. It was blowing up on test flights, so it wasn't ready to be manrated. But the N-1 was even less ready (and would later go on to blow up in even more spectacular ways). And worse still, there wasn't a spacecraft ready to put on top of Proton anyway. This was in large part due to politics, and a sort of war that was going on between Korolev and Chelomei, and the political factions that backed them. Politics was probably the single biggest impediment to the Russian space program overall, which is ironic since if it weren't for politics, that space program could not have existed at all. I often wonder whether politics isn't the biggest impediment ot the US space program as well, despite it being a necessary evil.<br /><br />The story of the Russian space program is fascinating, and still secret in some more; more and more information slowly filters out even today. I would say that they definitely were concerned with flesh and blood, but that some of the higher level decision makers often failed to fully appreciate the risks involved in various decisions. The politicians did make an effort to paint their program as more responsible than the American one, by pretending that they had never been attempting to shoot for the moon and pointing to all of their robotic probes. But if the US had not landed successfully on July 20, 1969, the Soviets would have kept trying until they had been successful. It's very difficult to predict how well or how badly that would have gone, but the evidence suggests they were starting to make some rather shocking compromises in an attempt to get a Soyuz to fit on a Proton, suggesting that political pressure was <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[3488]

You are more than correct my good friend.<br /><br />It is a great shame that so little has happened since then.<br /><br />Both Phobos & Deimos are certainly IMO captured type C asteroids.<br /><br />In fact their spectra is remarkably similar to mny similarly sized asteroids in the<br />outer parts of the Asteroid Belt, as well as the <br />Carme & Pasiphae Retrograde Groups of<br />Jupiter's outer moons<br />(a shame that New Horizons could not have passed any).<br /><br />I cannot see why MRO could not be instructed to view both with the HiRISE.<br /><br />It is high time that more research has been done into both Phobos & Deimos.<br /><br />AFAIK the ESA Mars Express is to pass both closely (already has with Phobos).<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[3488]

Hi CalliArcale, just seen your very informative post.<br /><br />The USSR I'm sure would have compromised on a one way suicide mission if necessary<br />as the cosmonauts would have been treated as heroes, giving their lives, to prove the <br />point that they could beat their arch enemies USA to landing people on the Moon,<br />to suit the ideology of the Communist Soviet Collective mind set.<br /><br />Your sentences<br /><br />" <font color="red">But if the US had not landed successfully on July 20, 1969, the Soviets would have<br />kept trying until they had been successful. It's very difficult to predict how well or <br />how badly that would have gone, but the evidence suggests they were starting to <br />make some rather shocking compromises in an attempt to get a Soyuz to fit on a Proton, <br />suggesting that political pressure was becoming almost unbearable</font><br /><br />does prove that they were prepared to risk human life in pursuit of their collective aims.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

It doesn't prove it.<br />It's in the realm of "the evidence suggests", which is not proof. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <br /><br />The words prove and proof should not the thrown about lightly, IMHO.<br /><br />Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[3488]

Hi MeteorWayne.<br /><br />That is probably true, but you know how paranoid the situation became.<br /><br />The USSR would have been willing, no doubt, if it was a very close two horse race, that to beat<br />you country to landing men on the Moon, the USSR would have sent a one way suicide trip.<br /><br />They would land safely, suit up, get out, stuff the Hammer & Sickle into the regolith,<br />make some sort of speach of how great their mother country & president are, do perhaps<br />a little science that could be transmitted, then pop cyanide tablets.<br /><br />I can just see it now.<br /><br />The cosmonauts would have been brainwashed before launch, that their sacrifice was <br />for the greater collective Soviet good.<br /><br />Fortunately Apollo 8 sent the three astronauts in lunar orbit, well before the USSR<br />were actually prepared for such a stunt & realised the game was up.<br /><br />Thankfully, well hopefully, that crappy period in our history is over.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

"Thankfully, well hopefully, that crappy period in our history is over. "<br />Well I think it is for the US and Russia.<br />Surely in the US, safety is a very high priority.<br /><br />As for China, I'm not as sure, based on leaded paint, poisons in toothpaste and food supplements, etc.<br />Perhaps they would push the envelope.<br /><br />But this is drifting off topic for the Phobos thread, where we admire the accomplishments and the science.<br /><br />MW<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[3488]

Sorry Anthmartian, for drifting off topic.<br /><br />Hi MeteorWayne, yes we do admire the science & results that Anthmartian has<br />been so good to share with us.<br /><br />This Phobos 2 topic is fascinating & shows how old material can be bought up to speed.<br /><br />Phobos 2 BTW had shown Phobos from certain viewing positions & lighting that have not been <br />repeated.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[anthmartian]

Andrew : No probs at all. Every word posted here has been very interesting. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em>"Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"</em></font></p><p><font color="#33cccc"><strong>Han Solo - 1977 - A long time ago in a galaxy far far away....</strong></font></p><p><br /><br />Click Here And jump over to my site.<br /></p> </div>

 

[3488]

This is a fascinating thread Anthmartian.<br /><br />Thank you very much for starting it.<br /><br />I for one am not done with it. I will research more material & post it<br />on this thread.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Logging on this morning I can't help but make my contribution to the off topic drift before returning to it.<br /><br />Whatever the standards in consumer products, I think the very extensive and cautious testing program of Shenzhou indicates that the Chinese are extremely conservative in their approach to safety.<br /><br />As for the L1(manned Zond) missions, it is worth noting that the problems with the spacecraft were the launcher and the rentry guidance system. The decision to not fly the missions was made higher up the management tree, the crews themselves were still prepared to fly it, presumably, as pilots will, figuring that is the booster failed the escape system would pull them clear, and if the guidence failed they coulsd manually fly the spacecraft down. <br /><br />Back to Phobos...<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

It's probably worth noting that while Ph-D are probably C type asteroids, this is not proved. They may well be space weathered S types. I learned this froma student I supervised last year (that is why you supervise students, they educate old farts like me). It shows how little we know about Ph-D.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

The late 80's were such exciting times for those of us who followed the Soviet space program. Not only were there so many great developments - Mir, Energia, Buran, Fobos, VeGa - there were promising missions to come - descent images of Venus, advanced Venus balloons, Mars balloons, Vesta flybys, Mars rovers. And at a time when the USSR was becoming very open in what it was doing and building links with other countries. It seemed to be a great time to be alive.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[3488]

Hi Jon,<br /><br />Thanks for that.<br /><br />I had never heard that before. I thought it was a proven fact that Phobos & Deimos<br />were of type C.<br /><br />It does show how little we know.<br /><br />If type S, then similar to Asteroids 951 Gapsra, 243 Ida & 433 Eros.<br /><br />Was the density of Phobos & Deimos not checked for during the encounters of MGS & Viking 2 <br />respectively?<br /><br />Also the Stickney Crater on Phobos is deep, in relation to its diameter. Remids me a bit<br />of the shadowed craters on asteroid 253 Mathilde & Zetes Crater on the Jupiter moon<br />Thebe.<br /><br />Bothe 253 Mathilde & Thebe are thought to be rubble pile objects. Phobos a rubble pile too?<br /><br />Andrew Brown.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[lampblack]

<font color="yellow">Guess what??? Phobos from Phobos 2 again.</font><br /><br />It's a rather beautiful potato. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#0000ff"><strong>Just tell the truth and let the chips fall...</strong></font> </div>

 

[kosmonavtkaa]

<i>Time</i> magazine article from 1987 about the Soviet space program of then: "Surging Ahead".<br /><br /><font color="orange">Meanwhile the Soviets are moving ahead. Next July the ambitious twin Phobos probes should be on their way to explore Mars and its moons. It is a mission worthy of Jules Verne. Harold Masursky, an astrogeologist who worked on the U.S. Viking missions to Mars, says the concept is "so damn complicated, it's just hair-raising." The Soviets plan to follow up on Phobos in 1992 by lofting another spacecraft, which will analyze Martian soil. Later in the decade, they want to use an unmanned probe to bring pieces of the planet back to earth, and have boldly suggested that the mission be jointly undertaken with the U.S.</font>/safety_wrapper> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[3488]

It is finally happening of sorts (hopefully) with PhobosGrunt.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

And let's not foregt that Russian instruments have contributed enormously to the success of Mars Odyssey and Mars Express.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[alokmohan]

Sad memory.

 

[rasun]

Yes, as for the openness, the VEGA probes had a lot of French, Hungarian and Czechoslovakian parts. They even carried a dust detector built at the University of Chicago!<br /><br />I haven't heard about VESTA before, so I tried to unearth some information. Here's what I was able to gather from 3 documents:<br />Pre-Dawn - the French-Soviet Vesta mission

 

[JonClarke]

Interesting! The details of the satellite design I have not seen before. There were other versions of the French-Russian Vesta mission that involved a Mars component. I don't remember the Venus-Vesta combination. <br /><br />Just checked my files - the Mars mission was a orbiter-lander-penetrator combination. The Venus Vesta proposal came first, and then changed to the Mars Vesta mission.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[jaxtraw]

I just watched the Phobos-Grunt "promo video". Sadly I don't understand Russian commentary, but watching it the mission looks awful complicated for a first try. It goes into orbit, it lands, it takes off, it goes into another orbit, then it comes home again, there's a cute robot arm for sampling, and so on. It'll be great if it all works. But...

 

[3488]

Hi rasun,<br /><br />Thanks for that. I had never heard of the Soviet VESTA mission before. Shame it never happened.<br /><br />It is not true that DAWN cannot reach 2 Pallas. There have been suggestions that 2 Pallas<br />could be rendezvoused with (not orbited though, a slow close encounter) <br />in December 2018, during the descending node. Only if all mission objectives at <br />4 Vesta & 1 Ceres are met. If the 2 Pallas option IS accepted, it also means an <br />extended stay at 1 Ceres, before DAWN heading off again. <br /><br />Fuel margins are excellent right now, as the Delta 2 performed such an accurate launch, <br />hence fewer & less fuel using TCMs required prior to 4 Vesta.<br /><br />Hi Jon,<br /><br />I had heard of a Soviet idea of a manned mission, involving either a 1 Ceres, 2 Pallas or <br />4 Vesta encounter, after a manned Mars landing, as a potential extended mission.<br /><br />Of course it was just a paper exercise.<br /><br />Did not hear though about a potential robotic mission along similar lines though.<br /><br />A great shame it never happened, a great shame indeed. <img src="/images/icons/frown.gif" /> <br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[3488]

Hi Jaxtraw,<br /><br />Unfortunately I DO agree with you 100%.<br /><br />Phobos-Grunt is an amazing mission, I really, really want it to work, very much indeed.<br /><br />The onboard instrumentation is superb, as it was on both Phobos 1 & Phobos 2, but<br />the Soviet computer technology back then, did not match up to the intrumentation.<br /><br />Phobos 1 was lost due to a faulty command, which caused Phobos1 to lose track of <br />Earth & the solar panels where starved of sunlight as they too lost track of the Sun.<br /><br />Phobos 2 is more mysterious as that was working well, but I suspect that faulty computer hardware<br />onboard was the cause.<br /><br />Maybe Jon Clarke knows what went wrong?<br /><br />Phobos-Grunt, does look overly ambitious, given the previous bad luck at Mars with the <br />former USSR.<br /><br />Of course, that is all history now & with modern technology, Phobos-Grunt IMO does<br />stand a high chance of success, but it does seem awfully complicated. <img src="/images/icons/crazy.gif" /> <br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

It is complex. But many of the aspects have been done before. The core sampling is based on what was used for the Luna sample reurn missions. The complex orbital manouvers are a consequence of using ion propulsion, which the Russians have a lot of experience on.<br /><br />So in principle it should work. But yes, I wish they would demonstrate success with something a little less ambitious first.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[rasun]

<i>It is not true that DAWN cannot reach 2 Pallas. There have been suggestions that 2 Pallas<br />could be rendezvoused with (not orbited though, a slow close encounter)<br />in December 2018, during the descending node. Only if all mission objectives at<br />4 Vesta & 1 Ceres are met. If the 2 Pallas option IS accepted, it also means an<br />extended stay at 1 Ceres, before DAWN heading off again. </i><br /><br />Thank you, I didn't know that. I read that they can't reach Pallas on the Dawn website; but it'll be nice if they can manage it this way!