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Shpaget

Guest
It's not incredibly stupid idea.
It's just not feasible with technology currently available or the tech that is likely to be invented in near future.
On the other hand, mining asteroids and using the materials in orbit is much more practical.
 
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missionunknown

Guest
When referring to space and viable business surely we need to talk about tourism first? Its the opposite to what has happened on earth with other industries preceding tourism i know.

Fire Bill gates strapped to a rocket around the moon with other billionaires (donald trump maybe) and watch as they take it to the next step and start masterminding building hotels on the moon which may open the door for heavy industry, or just other activity in general, on the lunar surface.
 
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kelvinzero

Guest
I would love to see a commerical approach work, and I would pay money for results if I thought they would arrive...

But an organisation run like a business whose sales pitch runs along the lines of "Give us 300 billion dollars and then we will build you a mars architecture" isnt going to work. Such an institution would have far less motivation to actually deliver than a government would.

For a business to work it would need to happen in much smaller steps. First they must commit their own money to demonstrate a product we want, then we buy, then with the money they make they create an even better product, which assuming they judged the market right, we also buy although it may cost more. Along the way they build up consumer confidence. (This isnt the advice of a business guru, just the commonsense observations of a consumer)

To work even better, you want many companies competing and learning from each other's successes and failures.

People often point out there is no at-hand way of making money from space. SSP, asteroid mining, even space hotels are a long way away from delivering a service. However we often spend money on things that we merely want and in no way add to our wealth. Videos and beer for example. We pay for them and do not complain that after years of paying for them we have not accumulated anything of value.

I find these nasa and google prizes very promising and would like to see a lot more of them. Because I would like to see more I am willing to pay. Not too much perhaps, but video and beer money anyway. Even video game money. I would pay a hundred dollars to see another LCROSS-like type mission if I knew a million other people would do the same.

A problem though is that people will get the pleasure of these achievements whether they pay or not so the money would still really just be donations rather than paying for a product.

What I think could work quite well is a horse-race or stock market like game where a reputable organisation manages a large number of prizes for achievements and people make contributions that will actually pay back for some, if only prestige and some stock in the successful company. This prestige would be very valuable in the internet forum enviroment because it would demonstrate who actually knows how to pick a winning horse. There could be large prizes (for companies, not consumers) for lunar return missions and such if you like (it costs nothing until a company claims it) but the secret would be the smaller prizes that cascade into achieving the larger ones.

For example with ion-drive or solar thermal lunar orbiters, robotic luna landers and regolith shovelers and microwave sintering and robots able to print primitive solar panels across acres of simulated regolith, soon we would have a thriving robot colony on the moon exploring, exploiting insitu resources and writing your messages in the luna dust for a small fee.
 
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HopDavid

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Bill_Wright":1iybkh90 said:
I don't think my proposal would take 100 years to turn a profit. I don't think my proposal would be that hard to fund.

There are hundreds of NEOs and asteroids. Spectroscopes could wean out the ones that might be rich in metals that are in short supply on Earth. Robotic missions could confirm that. That could be done in 5-7 years, about the time frame that Orion and the new launcher (let's call it Saturn VI) would be ready. That should also be the time that we have figured out how to get a pretty big object into Earth orbit in another 6-8 years. So we harvest our first profit in 15 years. Warren Buffet (sp?) just made a $30B+ investment that he believes will lose money short term but make money in the really long run (20-100 years). There are few investors with that kind of cash, but Paul Allen comes to mind as someone with a lot of money who can make a large investment. Meantime there are several million people who can do the $1k+, and many, many people who can do the $20+. Once people see that there is a return on investment the number of investors would increase greatly.

So give these rich venture capitalists your sales pitch.
 
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missionunknown

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MeteorWayne":3balwt7u said:
Is that supposed to be an intelligent post?

if your talking to me - yes. (apart from the strapping of people on to a rocket that is, i meant conventionally transporting 'highflyers' in rockets).
 
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Bill_Wright

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As referenced I am not a pitch-man. I am a scientist / engineer who knows how to manage projects on time and on budget. I never posted that we would have to raise $300B before lifting a finger, but I do think that we could send scout robots to search for NEOs and asteroids for well under $1B each. I know there is Indium in asteroids due to the layers found associated with major collisions. Where there is Indium there are likely to be other precious metals.

I also know that when you start pushing research boundaries surprise products fall out of the cracks. Maybe the corporation discovers a new way to develop integrated circuits. Maybe the corporation develops superconducting materials that revolutionize electric power transfer. Maybe the corporation develops magnets that make $50k medical imagers that fit in a briefcase and can be run by battery power. Maybe they create Tang that actually tastes like OJ (joke). In the meantime the share price is going up, dividends are getting paid, and we are getting closer to the real goal of detecting, defending from, and harvesting asteroids and comets.

Once we get a survey partially complete of the asteroids maybe we find an asteroid with a metal core that we can learn to turn on to emulate Earth's magnetic field. Now terra-forming Mars becomes a real possibility. Our corporation owns the rights to the technique. What do you think the share price would be then? By this time we might be able to really harvest non-NEO objects and all of what was junk lying around the solar system becomes usable material. Our corporation owns the rights. What do you think the share price would be then? OK, maybe we don't get rich, but our grandkids do. Is that a bad thing? Remember that the alternative is to let some current billionaire make her or himself richer, or even worse, our wonderfully efficient 2-year plan government manages to spend a few (very few) $Bs and do nothing. Those are some alternatives.

Now just for grins instead of using your wits to trash my ideas try using them to come up with better ideas, ideas that bring satisfaction to us for doing something and wealth to our grandkids. Further thoughts?
 
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kelvinzero

Guest
Bill_Wright":244krwqt said:
Now just for grins instead of using your wits to trash my ideas try using them to come up with better ideas, ideas that bring satisfaction to us for doing something and wealth to our grandkids. Further thoughts?

My post was my attempt at exactly that. Read beyond the $300 billion quip in the third line! To summarize, smaller more concrete goals, each of which moves us forwards within a larger well structured plan, and delivers a constant stream of successes. X-prizes and nasa moonlander prizes and many more of them. Add a bit of a horse race to give us some buy-in.
 
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Bill_Wright

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Again, I never said we had to raise the whole $350B before starting the first project. Just start. If the first project is to ally with the "X" organization and start funding little contests, fine. Just get the government out of it and don't let some billionaire or two dominate space. Space belongs to us if we want to take it. If we sit back and wait then we will find ourselves either shut out of participating, or watching the government trickle out funding so as to virtually guarantee that progress will be so slow that it becomes hard to measure. This isn't a case of first do no harm. Almost anything we did in an environmentally responsible manner would help progress. The important thing would be to get a group of us on the same page and then write the best possible project plan that leads to the ultimate goal and that is fairly cheap solar system space travel for all while returning a profit. There would be some sacrifice at the beginning, but that is common with start ups. The important thing is that we achieve our goals and make a few bucks while doing so. I guess I would also add that not selling out to greed would also be a good goal, tough but I think we could do it.
 
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Valcan

Guest
I like that your thinking beyond the make the Government do it for us to man people today walk around like lost children until there told what to do.

Here's a idea.

Step A: Invest in lowcost launch tech like Space X.

Step B: Invest, launch, and construct multi stage space station. Space station houses and maintains small space craft that can dip into leo and retreive defunt satelites other space junk. This is then processed into useable minerals, equipment etc. Station would contain habitation modual for well...isnt it obvious, habitation by say 10 or so people.
Garage area for the storage and maintanence of retreval craft and satelites. Storage and processing center for the storage of processed materials.

Later other moduals can be added. Can at first be powered by solar power later maybe by materials picked up in orbit or by small reactor sent from earth. Later can be the base of shipyard.

Step C: Construct mining ships in orbit. These ships will just go out to the lagrange points around earth moon system. Borring into and excavating the insides of smaller asteroids say between 60 to 100 meters. Spin the asteroid up using the mining vessel or use the mined material itself as a way to spin up the asteroid.


Anyways it gets longer and bla bla bla.................

But you get my point. Steps its all in steps.

Let governments fund the initial investment. Hey how much of the tarp money are we seeing any return in?
Then private firms can take over. Mining corporations have been lookin to space for a long time they just havent seen a way to do it. Mining in first world countries is for the most part very expensive. And especialy in the ones where the greenies have run amuck ******** by legal fees laws, and petty BS.
 
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kelvinzero

Guest
Smaller steps! even smaller steps! :)

I think the steps should be way smaller than even the google x-prize. (land a robot on the moon, move 500 meters, send back pictures.. that is still a huge ask and therefore seems to be attracting some vastly overoptimistic candidates IMO)

Investment in promising enterprises seems like a good step but there is the risk that they make nothing out of your investment but salaries. The general public are not rocket scientists and it would be easy to be exploited.

Looking at the x-prize site, one thing I think it lacks is the ability to donate towards a specific prize. Perhaps as well as the funded prizes there should be a bunch waiting for funding that can be donated to directly.
 
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Bill_Wright

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Cool - some positive thinkers. In my opinion the first two steps are to identify an achievable goal with economic return possibilities then write a project plan using a tool that can produce GANTT and PERT charts as well as cost projections. You then hide the cost projections from the vendors and put out a Request For Proposal (RFP). Now I am accustomed to contract work which doesn't map perfectly to contests. But maybe the way you do it is to take your cost projections, cut them back a bit, and make that the prize. I have no experience though with contests. With contracts I always used the best bid that offered some quality methodology. I then put teeth in it for poor performance and a bonus for exceeding contractual goals. Remember, I am not volunteering to lead some space initiative. These are merely statements of how I have done things in the past because I do not have the years or health to see such a project through. Even if contests happen every year there must be a program owner that can see through to the end of a 20-30 year project. I can hear the scoffs now but I have brought in on time and budget some very complex multi-vendor projects while fighting unions and even cliques within my own company. Miracles do not happen, but good leaders can make it look like they do. I am positive that we could use an NEO to mine an asteroid and get material to Earth in less than 30 years. Furthermore, I am positive that profitable "stuff" would fall out of the project in far less time, certainly not the quarterly time frame that some investors demand, but certainly within a 2 to 3 year time-frame. I'd probably go for either magnet or superconductivity technology. Both would be essential for space travel and both have tremendous non-space potential for highly profitable projects. As much as I have enjoyed these take-off/hover/land contests I just don't see a product coming out of them in 2-3 years. Maybe I am just not imaginative enough so someone help show me the money in this kind of contest.
 
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HopDavid

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Bill_Wright":2q4i4xc9 said:
but I do think that we could send scout robots to search for NEOs and asteroids for well under $1B each.

Here we agree on something. I've always advocated mass producing a fleet of prospector probes. With miniaturization, maybe they could be made quite small, like Smart-1. With ion engines, they'd have lots of delta V.

If mass produced on an assembly line, unit costs would fall. If they're small enough, several probes could be lofted with a medium sized rocket.

I think inexpensive prospector probes are doable.

Bill_Wright":2q4i4xc9 said:
I know there is Indium in asteroids due to the layers found associated with major collisions. Where there is Indium there are likely to be other precious metals.

Initially I believe water will be the most valuable asteroid resource. Propellent from extinct comets could help lower the cost of moving about the solar system and thus make mining asteroid metals profitable.

Bill_Wright":2q4i4xc9 said:
Now just for grins instead of using your wits to trash my ideas try using them to come up with better ideas, ideas that bring satisfaction to us for doing something and wealth to our grandkids. Further thoughts?

I happen to be a fan of NASA, their accomplishments are mind boggling. You seem to be among the folks who believe if we just got the stupid and bungling NASA out of the way, private business would colonize the solar system lickety split.

One of the reasons we're moving so slowly is that our goals are difficult.

When you say "I don't think my proposal would take 100 years to turn a profit. I don't think my proposal would be that hard to fund." you seem to be glibly stating that it's easy.

You don't think twice about attacking NASA but get all huffy when someone dares to criticize your views.
 
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Bill_Wright

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HopDavid":fz570oir said:
Bill_Wright":fz570oir said:
Now just for grins instead of using your wits to trash my ideas try using them to come up with better ideas, ideas that bring satisfaction to us for doing something and wealth to our grandkids. Further thoughts?

I happen to be a fan of NASA, their accomplishments are mind boggling. You seem to be among the folks who believe if we just got the stupid and bungling NASA out of the way, private business would colonize the solar system lickety split.

One of the reasons we're moving so slowly is that our goals are difficult.

When you say "I don't think my proposal would take 100 years to turn a profit. I don't think my proposal would be that hard to fund." you seem to be glibly stating that it's easy.

You don't think twice about attacking NASA but get all huffy when someone dares to criticize your views.

You are such a fan of NASA that you have failed to read my posts. The 2-year US government cycle is the main problem, as I have written repeatedly. I am a fan of President Jefferson. He felt a revolution every 20 years or so was a good idea. I am not a fan of violence and anarchy, and I have sworn an oath to defend the US Constitution, so I cannot advocate such a revolution against our country. I do think NASA is old enough to have acquired a lot of dead weight, and more than deserves a real make-over. That is why I advocate that the upper half (per annual reviews) be kept as employees with tenure, and the lower half kept as non-tenured contractors. If they don't raise their performance then they should be allowed to find jobs they can be successful in. As far as keeping NASA, if you are so blindly in love with the name then I suggest the government gives it to you. However, I believe that our space program can never satisfy us while it works for our short-cycle government. Apollo was special because JFK proposed it, became our martyred President, and nobody in our government had the guts to change it. That is a one-time event, probably one we will not see again for decades if ever. It also occurred in a relatively non-partisan period in our government that we will not see again, at least for quite a while. So get the space program out from under the control of our government. Keep it out from under the control of a few billionaires. Get it under our control. So if it makes you happy we will make you the commissar of names and you can call our privately owned space company NASA. But if you are happy waiting for the government to conquer space then be prepared to grow old and die a very unhappy person because it just ain't gonna' happen. BTW, you have never seen or read me being huffy. Certainly not in this thread.
 
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doom_shepherd

Guest
You need a multi-pronged marketing approach. Sell it to everybody at once as an entirely new way of doing things.

First - if you mine the asteroids, which have no environment to spoil, you don't have to mine the Earth so much. You can strip-mine a barren rock in space, and not kill any rare bugs.

Second - mine the right materials. Platinum and Iridium, especially. Usable for lots of things, and rare on Earth. I have heard it said that some "Iron" asteroids contain platinum deposits of arooud 100 parts per million. Doesn't sound like a lot... but the famous platinum mines of South Africa generally contain 5-20 parts per million. 100PPM... the folks who operate those mines might literally kill for a vein like that.

A 1 km asteroid is likely to contain about 7,500 TONS of platinum. Which is right now $1350 an ounce. I'll let you do the math.

You want to make THIS pdf file part of your presentation paper:
The Value of an Asteroid... at 2007 prices (Now, Much Higher!)

Third - See Second. Some of these rare metals are just what you need to build a large amount of solar panels, and other energy efficient items. More save-the-planet stuff. (I just read a article in Scientific American that talked about meeting all the world's energy needs with ground-based solar... by 2030...if we can think ahead.)

Also, asteroid mining is essential if we want to ever have a substantial offworld presence in our own solar system. It would, in all likelihood, be easier to hollow out an asteroid (by mining it) and make it habitable (spin for gravity, mine volatiles for O2, use conventional indoor techniques for heat and light) than it would be to live on a planet, say Mars. and LOADS of room when you can build in three dimensions. You can pack a good-sized city in a small rock.

And for colonies, mining an asteroid is a lot cheaper than mining a planetary body and having to push things up a gravity well to move them around.

Last... sell it the the military as a potential weapons system. Kinetic energy type. Break off a small chunk of the asteroid, put a thruster on one end and a little GPs, maybe a camera on the other. When the time comes, drop it through the atmosphere like a little targeted meteor. All the explosion, no radiation or nasty aftereffects...and with a lot less chance for the enemy to do anything about it. No boost phase, no cruse phase, just WHOOSH! down and boo,. And if that doesn't sell them... ask them if anybody in China is smart enough to have the same idea. ;)

It's not just a moneymaking scheme... though there are gross riches up there... it's an evolutionary leap forward.
 
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Swampcat

Guest
Bill_Wright":qk9v3tdq said:
As much as I have enjoyed these take-off/hover/land contests I just don't see a product coming out of them in 2-3 years. Maybe I am just not imaginative enough so someone help show me the money in this kind of contest.

This is sort of off topic, but just to satisfy your curiosity, consider the Lunar Lander Challenge vehicles as reusable sounding rockets. An imaginative person might see the potential in that. Consider also that these vehicles can hover at altitude, something a sounding rocket can't do.

The most important thing these competitions have produced is small rocket engines that are reliable, reusable, easily maintained, relatively cheap, along with the control systems and software to guide them.

Within two to three years, these vehicles may be capable of flying humans to suborbital space and back completely on rocket power, then reload propellants, and fly again within hours or less...cheaply.

Not to mention the potential of providing a privately developed lunar lander to any organization trying to put together a space program.
 
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Bill_Wright

Guest
Here's a thought about the "X-Prize" aspect. I don't know Paul Allen. He probably is a really decent person. But he just went out and bought the X-Prize for space. To prevent that from being the norm one would have to cap the expenditures on building a product. You might even throw in bonuses for people who win the contest at 25 percent, 50 percent, and 75 percent of the cost goal. It would also insure that the product or service was affordable once manufacturing starts. There should be rules about patents and or copywrites (I said I was no lawyer) as the product or service must be protectable and legally defense-able. If the country of origin won't claim originality then how could our corporation protect its profits. I know this sounds harsh but what good is a superconducting magnet in a medical imager with a price-point of $5K if the magnet costs $100k to build and instead of selling it you spend $Ms fighting lawsuits? Before you ask yourself about why I picked a medical imager remember that some space missions might take months or years and the participants would need medical care. Also remember that in an earlier post I suggested that while our goal is space if we can sell a few products or services that fall out of the space program that increases our share price and dividends. If it weren't for Apollo the IC might not have been developed. Without that no PCs or cell phones. Something to ponder...
Regards,
Bill
 
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HopDavid

Guest
doom_shepherd":1wybfxv8 said:
You need a multi-pronged marketing approach. Sell it to everybody at once as an entirely new way of doing things.

First - if you mine the asteroids, which have no environment to spoil, you don't have to mine the Earth so much. You can strip-mine a barren rock in space, and not kill any rare bugs.

Second - mine the right materials. Platinum and Iridium, especially. Usable for lots of things, and rare on Earth. I have heard it said that some "Iron" asteroids contain platinum deposits of arooud 100 parts per million. Doesn't sound like a lot... but the famous platinum mines of South Africa generally contain 5-20 parts per million. 100PPM... the folks who operate those mines might literally kill for a vein like that.

A 1 km asteroid is likely to contain about 7,500 TONS of platinum. Which is right now $1350 an ounce. I'll let you do the math.

You want to make THIS pdf file part of your presentation paper:
The Value of an Asteroid... at 2007 prices (Now, Much Higher!)

Dr. J. S. Lewis is a professor of planetary science at the University of Arizona. There are a couple of things that conspired to make UofA a leader in planetary science. It is close to Kitt Peak observatory which makes the UofA attractive to astronomers. And Arizona has many copper mines, for most of the 20th century copper was a major part of Arizona's economy. Because of this UofA has a very good mining engineering program and a very good geology program.

The shared location of a first class astronomy program and a first class geology program has led to a first class planetary science program. They do leading research for NEOs and small bodies. If you surf the web looking for small body info, you will come to the UofA again and again.

There are a good number of mining engineers who are well aware of metallic asteroids. But you don't see Freeport McMoRan building space vehicles. Why is that?

It is because access to asteroids is cost prohibitive. Launching a infra structure from earth's surface to an asteroid would take around 13 to 16 km/sec for most NEOs. If there's no propellent for the return leg, toss another 4 km/sec into the exponent of the rocket equation:

Mass propellent/Mass payload = e^(20/4.46) - 1. 20 km/sec being the total delta V budget and 4.46 km/sec being the exhaust velocity of Lox/Lh2.

This is a delta V budget that mandates disposable mega rockets. The return on your investment will be negative.

To make space affordable we need non earth propellent sources and propellent depots in LEO and EML1.

One possibility for robotic propellent mining of NEOs is Kuck Mosquitoes. There may be some NEOs that are actually extinct comets with a core of volatile ices protected by an insulating mantle.

leogas.jpg


In the near term, water will be a more valuable asteroidal resource than platinum.

doom_shepherd":1wybfxv8 said:
Third - See Second. Some of these rare metals are just what you need to build a large amount of solar panels, and other energy efficient items. More save-the-planet stuff. (I just read a article in Scientific American that talked about meeting all the world's energy needs with ground-based solar... by 2030...if we can think ahead.)

Also, asteroid mining is essential if we want to ever have a substantial offworld presence in our own solar system. It would, in all likelihood, be easier to hollow out an asteroid (by mining it) and make it habitable (spin for gravity, mine volatiles for O2, use conventional indoor techniques for heat and light) than it would be to live on a planet, say Mars. and LOADS of room when you can build in three dimensions. You can pack a good-sized city in a small rock.

And for colonies, mining an asteroid is a lot cheaper than mining a planetary body and having to push things up a gravity well to move them around.

You've done a good job listing arguments against planetary chauvinism. I am also enthusiastic about small bodies. However they have disadvantages.

One is rarity of launch windows. From LEO you don't have a NEO launch window every two weeks like you do for the moon.

The moon has abundant oxygen which is most of propellent mass in a typical chemical rocket. This lunar oxygen is only 2.5 km/sec from EML1.

Another is they lie on different orbits about the sun. It takes Delta V to match velocities with them. For many NEOs this obliterates delta V advantages conferred by their shallow gravity well.

Oddly enough, the two most accessible bodies in terms of delta V are Phobos and Deimos. This is because they're in Mars' gravity well. This is counter intuitive but it's true. These moons are between 3 and 4 km/sec from EML1. And there is some indication they may be good sources of propellent.

I am aggravated by enthusiasts who say "Let's skip the Moon and go straight to Mars" or "Let's skip the Moon and Mars and go straight to NEOs". In my opinion they are misguided and their advocacy does more harm than good. The solar system is full of resources that could help us get a foothold in space. And the planetary gravity wells are among those resources.

doom_shepherd":1wybfxv8 said:
Last... sell it the the military as a potential weapons system.

One optimist was telling me that Tunguskas or Chicxulubs will never happen again if humankind acquired the ability to move asteroids. He got upset when I opined that asteroid impacts will become a 1000 times more likely should we gain that power.
 
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HopDavid

Guest
Bill_Wright":3t8m2dby said:
Here's a thought about the "X-Prize" aspect. I don't know Paul Allen. He probably is a really decent person. But he just went out and bought the X-Prize for space. To prevent that from being the norm one would have to cap the expenditures on building a product.

You should team up Gaetano Marano. I bet the two of you could revolutionize human space development.
 
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John_with_a_B

Guest
Wow, Bill! Stirring the pot, again, I see...

Lots of good and bad ideas so far. I would maybe comment only on a few of them.

I am not an anti NASA guy either. I think it has its place, and certainly, might be the best sort of model for interplanetary exploration (Cassini, New Horizons etc.), space telescopes (Hubble, Spitzer and others) and the likes of the Martian rovers, whether alone or in partnership with other space agencies. But it seems it is hobbled and at a great disadvantage when dealing with any sort of long term, ongoing strategy for its missions. One President proposes a "Vision" and NASA begs Congress for the money, only to find the next iteration of Congress has total amnesia when it comes to remembering what NASA needs to fulfill its mandate.

Perhaps NASA would be fine if it was reorganized or replaced by another agency that was more insulated from changing political winds. How wonderful it would be if space exploration was constitutionally allotted a fixed amount of GNP (1% perhaps?) that varied with the health and growth of the economy and not with porkbarreling and short term political whims.

As far as a corporation for space related efforts is concerned, I agree with many others that the "space business" is a hard thing to try to wedge into the conventional business plan with an expectation of profit over a specified period of time. I wonder if a better approach might be to have a non-profit foundation or an independent quasi-multi-governmental agency established to pursue space related activities. Hopefully some initial seed money could be raised from various private and governmental sources, and a properly run ongoing fund raising and merchandising operation to expand and sustain it could be started. Perhaps it would not undertake missions directly, but make funding available for others to do them. In a sense, this is already happening with the X-Prizes and the like, but maybe the concept could be expanded further. I have no idea what the ultimately best form is that it should take, but above all it should be beyond the reach of elected politicians after it is started.

As far as getting rich off asteroid mining, I see that a very long way off. To exploit asteroids and return the material to Earth is one of the farthest I can see, short of actually changing the orbit of any body beyond a few meters in size to a preferred orbit of our choosing. The best use of them with be in fabrication of things for use in space, whether that be building space craft in space or creating large space stations/colonies there and so avoiding the cost of launching large amounts of material from Earth.

Ultimately, the idea of making a buck up there in the short term is likely limited to ever cheaper contracts for launches, space tourism and commercial communication projects. It will be a long while yet before we have the technology to send a robotic mission to any body in space to have it mine and process whatever may be there into usable commodities. Even extracting water from icy asteroids or comets is not yet possible, let alone turning that into rocket fuel that is ultimately in a location and orbit that is useful to other endeavours.

Private enterprise will never be interested in landing probes on the moons of gas giants to see what may be there or trying to make money selling pictures from space telescopes of various kinds or sending missions beyond the solar system with no prospect of coming back.

I see a strong case to be made for both public and private space exploration. I am not yet sure in my own mind which will facilitate human space exploration best at this point. Neither have really accomplished much in that regard to be very proud of recently. For pure science purposes, I do believe that robots can do the job far cheaper than can be done by sending and returning people to do the same tasks. And I think many that disagree with me there often forget how young robotic technology truly is, and how far it will likely advance in the coming years and decades, while conveniently forgetting that human evolution is already a few million years into the process, and not likely to progress noticeably much in the future except one generation at a time.

The usual next objection I expect to hear is from the die hard "space must be quickly colonized at any cost" crowd to me not joining into their specious chants is that we simply have no options in our solar system with our technology, nor will we in our grandchildren's lifetimes to establish and support a colony of this planet. We could, conceivably, establish a base on either the Moon or Mars at great expense much like a smaller version of what we have on Antarctica. We have been there over 50 years and still few have stayed there longer than a few years. Most go for the summer and leave again within 6 months. The total human population there varies from about 1000 - 5000 people. I realize there are many things about the two situations that are totally different, but the similarities are worth noting. Antarctica is both easy to go to and easy to get off of if needed than an extra terrestrial colony would be. Human settlement is restricted by international treaty, so that those there are primarily there for scientific research, without colonization being an option. There are many other differences.

But the similarities are also there. To be independently sustainable both would need to grow a food supply to sustain themselves. Antarctica can get by on semi annual care packages so crop growing and animal raising is not necessary. I would say it will take a long time to produce a local food supply on the Moon or Mars without it taking all the human effort available to do so. Most initial materials for shelter will be sent from here before manufacturing more from local materials is feasible. It will be a very long time until there is a surplus of ANYTHING that is needed to help support an expanded population beyond the initial people, without all their needs coming from Earth as well. How long that will take is anyone's guess, but it won't happen overnight.

The usual prattle goes on and on about how if we don't get a colony established on Mars soon an asteroid will come along and wipe us all out, and so civilization will end. Get a grip! That is the most specious of all! To say that all mankind would be wiped out like the dinosaurs if an asteroid hit is like saying we are only as smart as they were and our technology is is no better than theirs was. If 99.9% of humanity was wiped out, that would still leave several million survivors. That is far more than what is likely to be on Mars for several centuries, if ever.

But, suppose that ALL human life was extinguished on the Earth. Do you think for a minute that several thousand people living on Mars would have all the elements that make up human civilization to carry on with? Gone are all the libraries, universities, museums and all the architecture, plus all the scientific, engineering and medical research facilities, as well as all the art and musicians and all the other things that make up a civilization. I seriously doubt a fraction of a percent of human knowledge will be on Mars at that time, if ever. There may be a vast collection of DVD's or the equivalent such thing of the day, and some sample Earth artifacts hanging on the walls of Martian habitats, but I doubt very many, considering the cost of sending them there.

I think that even a well established Martian colony will still need the Earth to trade with to survive, if not to send them vital supplies on a regular basis. Perhaps they would survive and carry on, eventually being able to build return rockets to come back to repopulate Earth years later. My personal feeling is that we will set up a base on Mars, spend years proving it could be done, then something will come along which will mean for a while Earth is unable or unwilling to support the colony. Either the people there will be told to abandon it and return, or be abandoned there without support. It may be that after a couple decades we say it was fun but decide to call it quits, or we maintain a few dozen people in a scaled down version of Antarctica.

To really be able to say humans will not just survive, but thrive in a colony off the Earth will likely be possible in the VERY distant future when we have identified suitable exo-planets and send some very brave people on a very long one way trip.

Whatever the reasons we try to set up bases or colonies off the Earth I just hope we do it for honest ones. To hear people constantly say: It must be done! (especially MY way) We must must do it to save humanity! (MY research grant) We will all die if we don't! (but not ME, I won't be here if you fund ME like I want) To get up on a soap box and preach that this is imperative is the BEST way to begin a massive waste of money and talent that leads to the sort of backlash that gets the possibility of it ever happening canceled indefinitely.

I also don't see that going to live on Mars will be very lucrative for a private venture for a very long time.
 
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Booban

Guest
I'm not going to write as much as he did, I promise.

About mining asteroids, in space (not bringing them home through the atmosphere), I don't really see why it should be so impossibly expensive as some people say. The way I see it, most of it is a one time cost. A 'mining ship' that is sent up to perch on a roid and gobble it up until it is done. This ship jettisons its ore in capsules back to earth. After this roid is done, the ship goes to the next, then next, until there is not an asteroid left in the known universe ( :p ). All self autonomously. The only costs is building and a lofting the ship itself, then propellants to send the stuff back through the atmosphere in capsules.

Now you can't tell me that whatever the one time cost of this mining ship, it is more than the worth of all the asteroids in the asteroid belt!
 
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Shpaget

Guest
Asteroid belt is too far away to be mined. But there are more than enough NEOs to provide (certain) materials for tens of thousands of years.

I don't think you can have your mining ship (lets be cool and from now on call it an outpost) unmanned and automated. Mining is very stressful on equipment and it wears it down quickly, so constant maintenance and part replacing is required. I'm not sure it can be done remotely.

Sending mined (and preferably somewhat refined) material back to Earth's orbit is also an issue. Unless you can move around massive amounts of it, entire project is doomed, and I'm pretty sure current propulsion systems are not capable of doing it in reasonable amount of time.
What is needed (IMO) is a new engine capable of burning whatever is found in those asteroids (mainly various types of rocks), because sending enough propellant to the asteroid to be able to get back the material is not practical.
I guess it should be some kind of electric system (a cousin of an ion engine or VASIMR), but not too picky about the propellant.

I'm pretty sure that dropping the mined resources in bulk to the Earth's surface won't be possible for a long time, but that's ok. Metals are needed up there, down here we have enough for our needs. Besides 1 tonne of steel down here is worth $500. Up there it's worth about $10 000 000, and higher you go bigger the price tag you can stick on it (and it's actually cheaper for you to deliver it).

So if you want to make money, you'll make more up there since I'm not sure if you can compete with $500/t (after you calculate in all the costs of the mission and losses during the reentry), but you sure can compete with 10M/t, and you don't even have all the losses and complications of reentry and nuclear bomb sized explosions.
 
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kelvinzero

Guest
Bill_Wright":1hdo2shy said:
Here's a thought about the "X-Prize" aspect. I don't know Paul Allen. He probably is a really decent person. But he just went out and bought the X-Prize for space. To prevent that from being the norm one would have to cap the expenditures on building a product...
Bill

I havent been following the details.. I have never even heard of the guy :) (just googled it)

but yeah, future prizes could be about demonstrating something within a certain cost..

On the other hand though, this is one of the big advantages of the x-prize. For every million that the x-prize people put up, private investors typically put in twenty or so times as much money. The real prize is not the money but the prestige of winning an award with a valuable name behind it.

Im thrilled that a co founder of microsoft would bring his financial clout to winning a prize.. I wonder if he expects to make this money back (which is great if he has a financial plan that works ) or just has too much money and wants to be an astronaut (which is also fine by me :) )
 
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Booban

Guest
Shpaget":2fyq5h7g said:
Asteroid belt is too far away to be mined. But there are more than enough NEOs to provide (certain) materials for tens of thousands of years.

I don't think you can have your mining ship (lets be cool and from now on call it an outpost) unmanned and automated. Mining is very stressful on equipment and it wears it down quickly, so constant maintenance and part replacing is required. I'm not sure it can be done remotely.

Sending mined (and preferably somewhat refined) material back to Earth's orbit is also an issue. Unless you can move around massive amounts of it, entire project is doomed, and I'm pretty sure current propulsion systems are not capable of doing it in reasonable amount of time.
What is needed (IMO) is a new engine capable of burning whatever is found in those asteroids (mainly various types of rocks), because sending enough propellant to the asteroid to be able to get back the material is not practical.
I guess it should be some kind of electric system (a cousin of an ion engine or VASIMR), but not too picky about the propellant.

I'm pretty sure that dropping the mined resources in bulk to the Earth's surface won't be possible for a long time, but that's ok. Metals are needed up there, down here we have enough for our needs. Besides 1 tonne of steel down here is worth $500. Up there it's worth about $10 000 000, and higher you go bigger the price tag you can stick on it (and it's actually cheaper for you to deliver it).

So if you want to make money, you'll make more up there since I'm not sure if you can compete with $500/t (after you calculate in all the costs of the mission and losses during the reentry), but you sure can compete with 10M/t, and you don't even have all the losses and complications of reentry and nuclear bomb sized explosions.

In 2007 Dawn was launched to to reach Ceres in 2015, before that Vesta in 2011. Vesta is the size of Arizona and Ceres is a 'dwarf' planet. I don't see the time scale as being a big deal, not even for humans if they get to retire after their 'shift'.

What NEO are you talking about? The moon? Can't be mining the moon forever you know. Don't forget its gravity affects our tides, I'd prefer mining the moon just be a spring board to something else.

Why is propulsion such an issue? It's frictionless space, isn't it ways easier to move things about there? Yeah, its a time issue, but my time frame is ok if it takes 20 years before the first metal filled pod parachutes to earth, because after that, my mining 'outpost' is send 'em once a day. Whats so hard about that? We know very well how to send things in capsules back down to earth.

But no, its not ok to use the space resources in space. The whole point is trying to get into space in the first place. There is no space industry that want's to buy my asteroid ore in space, therefore steel is worth zero dollars in space.

Why are you using steel for 500 bucks a ton for? That is a silly number, surely there is something more valuable than that in an asteroid.
 
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