Ring systems more dynamic than we thought?

[jmilsom]

Two interesting articles today on Saturn's rings. One by AP posted on SDC on how rapidly the rings are changing and another on NewScientist.com concerning a faint spiral ring discovered outside the F-ring. This leads me to ponder and pose the question: are these ring systems short-lived in astronomical terms? Could Jupiter, Uranus or Neptune have had or had more substantial ring systems in the past?<br /><br /><b>Recent Changes in Saturn Rings Puzzle Scientists</b><br /><br /><i>LOS ANGELES (AP) -- New observations by the international Cassini spacecraft reveal that Saturn's trademark shimmering rings, which have dazzled astronomers since Galileo's time, have dramatically changed over just the past 25 years.</i><br /><br /> Full Story Here <br /><br /><b>Spiral spotted around Saturn's outer ring.</b><br /><br /><i>NewScientist.com News Service<br />Maggie McKee<br /><br />A spiral of powder-sized particles winds around Saturn’s outermost ring, according to new observations with the Cassini spacecraft. The new feature may be caused by small moons ploughing through the ring, but scientists are at a loss to explain the process.<br /><br />Scientists led by Sebastien Charnoz of the University of Paris in France have used Cassini’s Imaging Science Subsystem to identify the spiral around the F ring, which lies beyond the planet's main ring system. It curls around and into the ring, and stretches about 400 kilometres to either side of the ring's outer edge.<br />“We’ve never seen anything like this before,” says Carolyn Porco, an imaging team member at the Space Science Institute in Boulder, Colorado, US. The spiral structure appears to be associated with clumps of matter seen occasionally in the ring and in particular with one small moon, called S/2004 S6, that has collided with the ring twice over the last year or so on its orbit around Saturn.<br /><br />"It is very possible that the spiral is a</i> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[Saiph]

From what I recall in my reading, ring systems are expected to live tens of millions (maybe a few hundred million) years. So yeah, pretty short lived as far as astronomy goes. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p align="center"><font color="#c0c0c0"><br /></font></p><p align="center"><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">----</font></em></font><font color="#666699">SaiphMOD@gmail.com </font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">-------------------</font></em></font></p><p><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">"This is my Timey Wimey Detector.  Goes "bing" when there's stuff.  It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually.  I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- </font></em></font><font size="1" color="#999999">The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[jmilsom]

This is really interesting though. They are talking of <i>dramatic</i> changes over a period of just 25 years. The article mentions the D-ring has grown considerably dimmer since Voyager flew past in 1981 and that the entire ring has moved 125 miles closer to Saturn. The spiral near the F-ring is interesting as it may give us further insights into the dynamics of ring systems. <br /><br />That article says <i>......but scientists are at a loss to explain the process.</i>, which means it is time for the brilliant forum members of SDC to take up the challenge! <br /><br />I think I'll re-visit the Iapetus thread as many ideas were tossed around that may have bearing on this! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[CalliArcale]

I wouldn't say scientists are at a complete loss -- they've got some pretty creative minds among them and have tossed out a few interesting suggestions. But none of the ideas has really satisfied any of them yet, and certainly none are proven. So it's anybody's game, really. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[gammarayburst]

The rings are created by the hosting planet. As the planet gives off energy "radiation, light etc. the energy slows down and creates matter. Magnetic fields have been proven to effect light. Your monitor's light is controlled by an electro magnetic field. <br /><br />If E=MC² then M=E/C² or, matter is equal to energy when it slows down to half the speed of light. Energy slows down instead of bending at a point exactly 90° of a strong magnetic field. This is why the matter only forms at the equator of it's own magnetic field. <br /><br />I call it the Magnetic Field Theory.

 

[vogon13]

Without a moon(s) of its own, (although I have addressed that) Iapetus would have a ring system with no strong (or even weak) resonances operating in it.<br /><br />That would be a profound difference with the rings of Saturn. The resonances of the icy satellites in the ring material of Saturn grotesquely complicates any calculations one could care to do on the rings.<br /><br />I'm not sure of the level of understanding even in regards to details of a 'smooth' unrippled ring system around Iapetus. Saturn's may be some of the most complex rings possible. From the number of interactions, to their large mass (their self gravity must affect them considerably, how does one compute that?), and interactions with Saturn's magnetosphere.<br /><br />You scarcely can realize the magnitude of the task. <br /><br />Spiral ring? YOIKS!<br /><br /><br />I did have an idea for an experiment though:<br /><br />Take a rocket way out in deep space, release a very massive osmium (DU ok too) ball to space. While keeping the ball out of sunlight by a large deployed sunshade (light pressure will mess up the experiment) take a small container of a finely divided solid like talcum powder.<br />Gently, and I do mean gently, puff a waft of dust towards the ball at as low a speed as possible. While watching with the biggest hulking telephoto lensed camera you can get as far as way as possible, watch what happens.<br /><br />Does the talc orbit the ball? Does it make a ring? Does it clump into satellites?<br /><br />I dunno. Try it!<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>

 

[thermionic]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p><br /><br />The rings are created by the hosting planet. As the planet gives off energy "radiation, light etc. the energy slows down and creates matter. Magnetic fields have been proven to effect light. Your monitor's light is controlled by an electro magnetic field. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />I don't think so. It's been about 14 billion years since 'energy' (presumably photons?) and matter interacted like that. As for our monitors, the magnetic fields in the CRT are steering an electron bream, that is charged particles, which only create light when they hit the phosphor screen. A computer monitor is absolutely not an example of magnetic fields affecting light.<br /><br />

 

[bonzelite]

well, some questions are rings the result of captured material, or are they born from the planet itself? or could both be happening depending on the planet and events involved? <br /><br />are the rings remains of the accretion disk of the planet? are the rings shattered fragments of moons? or from a failed moon that never accreted?<br /><br />if gas giants regularly eject material in cataclysmic events, the ring material could be leftover material from such an event. <br /><br />do any terrestrial planets have ring systems? are any known? if so, that would even complicate further the questions.

 

[vogon13]

I have seen Orpheus collision with earth discussions mention a ring around earth and the moon, but considering the violence of that scenario, the 'ring' structures would be more akin to re-accretion disks than what (I hope) we all consider to be a 'classical' ring system.<br /><br />A ring system (or accretion disk) around an object with a molten surface lacks a certain appeal to me.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

vog, explain classical ring system in this case. <br /><br />could ring systems exist for differing reasons?

 

[vogon13]

Classical like Saturns. Saturn which is not forming from gas clouds and meteors and such from the primeval maelstrom. The quite, pensive Saturn that we know today.<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />I wanted to draw a distinction between the probable disk of agitated material Saturn formed from rather than the (relatively) calm ring system seen today.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>