Running liquid on Mars in 2008

ckalil · Dec 11, 2008

<div>This is an interesting picture taken in the Martian spring of 2008. It is a northern dune that is defrosting.  Liquid can clearly be seen running down the sun facing side of the dune and pooling at the bottom. Now the common theory is that the frosting of the dunes at the north poll is carbon dioxide however carbon dioxide does not exist in a liquid state below 5 earth atmospheres of pressure. It would then seem that this may be water ice on the dunes which is melting and existing as a liquid. Each run down the dune is about 3 to 4 feet wide. </div> <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/2/5/d2e02ce0-b15a-4240-b504-e79fee777306.Medium.png" alt="" />#So if this is liquid water then this image (below), from the same region appears to be a standing pool of water. The pool is around 40 feet wide. The terrain can be seen above the surface and then becoming submerged as evident by the change in clarity and color (click the images for larger versions). About 3 weeks later the dark blue stuff was almost gone! Pretty cool!  <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/9/6/998331b8-12da-4044-96b3-ab243d75ef7a.Medium.png" alt="" />

nimbus · Dec 11, 2008

What're the reference numbers for these images in the (I guess) hirise catalog? The bottom one looks like a false color image. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

silylene old · Dec 11, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>This is an interesting picture taken in the Martian spring of 2008. It is a northern dune that is defrosting.  Liquid can clearly be seen running down the sun facing side of the dune and pooling at the bottom. Now the common theory is that the frosting of the dunes at the north poll is carbon dioxide however carbon dioxide does not exist in a liquid state below 5 earth atmospheres of pressure. It would then seem that this may be water ice on the dunes which is melting and existing as a liquid. Each run down the dune is about 3 to 4 feet wide.  So if this is liquid water then this image (below), from the same region appears to be a standing pool of water. The pool is around 40 feet wide. The terrain can be seen above the surface and then becoming submerged as evident by the change in clarity and color (click the images for larger versions). About 3 weeks later the dark blue stuff was almost gone! Pretty cool!  Posted by ckalil</DIV> I am interested, but don't see real evidence of what you are claiming in those two small photos.  Please post links and picture reference numbers, including time sequence pictures which show the 'pool' forming, then fading away.  thanks. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

ckalil · Dec 11, 2008

The link to the HiRISE image page for the dune is: http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_008468_2650The dune is the one all the way at the bottom if you are looking at the "IRB color (non-map projected)" version of the image.The "pool" is in this image: http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_007677_2650 taken on 16 March 2008. The location is about halfway down on the "IRB color (map projected)" image.  It can be see right below an elongated sand dune that runs the width of the image. The follow up is in this image taken on 13 April 2008: http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_008033_2650  and here: http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_008771_2650 dated 09 June 2008. On this image you will have to use the viewer to look at this area as there is a lot of steam rising from this part of the image. This happens every spring at this time. Here are some old MOC images detailing this: http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/m19_m23/images/M21/M2101415.html and http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/m19_m23/images/M21/M2101920.html This last image was taken 7 September 2008 http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_009914_2750 The "pool" has completely vanished and the terrain can be seen clearly. I believe that there is some underground thermal activity in this area. The appears to be some venting shafts in the ice sheet above the region which can be seen in this image: http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/e01_e06/images/E03/E0301758.html It is difficult to spot without a little contrast adjustment so I have uploaded this insert: <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/11/5/fb046f49-e3fd-4891-8508-0806219e30ec.Medium.png" alt="" />The dunes are located in an area about 4 miles long and 150 to 200 feet wide where the ice melts away long before any dethawing takes place anywere else in the vicinity. Nasa has been watching this area very carefully since I posted this: http://www.space.com/common/community/forums/?plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3ac7921f8b-94ec-454a-9715-3770aac6e2caForum%3abf7b9387-46b4-47ed-ad5b-34a5350b82ecDiscussion%3ac9076cc7-2864-4bab-ae02-22566b1aa553HiRISE has taken 10 images of the dunes in this exact location and only a few other dune images from the rest of Chasma Boreale. http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/geographikos.php?q1=80&q2=86&q3=325&q4=340&order=release_date&submit=Search  Here are some THEMIS infrared images of the area:Image 1 http://themis-data.asu.edu/img/color/V12060004?band=321&ext=JPEG&stretch=H3 http://themis-data.asu.edu/img/V12060004?image=V12060004&band=321&stretch=H3&tab=1 Image 2 http://themis-data.asu.edu/img/newimg/V12397002?band=3&ext=JPEG&stretch=H3 http://themis-data.asu.edu/img/V12397002?image=V12397002&band=3&stretch=H3&tab=1 Image 3 http://themis-data.asu.edu/img/newimg/V05732011?band=3&ext=JPEG&stretch=H3 http://themis-data.asu.edu/img/V05732011?image=V05732011&band=2&stretch=H3&tab=1 http://themis-data.asu.edu/img/color/V04983008?band=321&ext=JPEG&stretch=S2

BSJ · Dec 11, 2008

If the black stuff is water, why is there so much of it not associated with dunes? If you look “north” of those dunes in the open flat area, there are wind swept fans of black stuff. Either there are outcrops of the black material or they are the result of dunes having been in that spot at one time and then moving on, leaving the fan of dark material behind <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

ckalil · Dec 11, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>If the black stuff is water, why is there so much of it not associated with dunes? If you look “north” of those dunes in the open flat area, there are wind swept fans of black stuff. Either there are outcrops of the black material or they are the result of dunes having been in that spot at one time and then moving on, leaving the fan of dark material behind Posted by BSJ</DIV>BSJ,I have looked at many of those "fans". They all appear to have some type of liquid associated with them. After spring they are no longer visible. So it does not appear to be dune residue for this reason.  The feature to note is that at their point the fans are very dark as though, if this is liquid, the tip is the originating point which is a deep hole and the fan is due to the wind moving the warmer air away from the originating point. It almost looks as though there is liquid coming out of the ground at the source. If this was a sublimation process I cannot think of why these areas would sublimate in the shape of a fan. I don't have all the answers... just trying to understand what is going on down there. But then there are ones like this that actually look like some kind of run-off <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/0/15/104609e0-a9c3-4ccd-af71-9960b8e3c5e2.Medium.png" alt="" /> http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_008468_2650

BSJ · Dec 11, 2008

This is the first time I’ve ever attempted to do “terrain analysis” of another planet so I don’t really have any way to put much of the image into context. My imagery analysis experience is mostly in the deserts of Iraq and Saudi Arabia.  Any idea of what the material the dunes are made of? Grain size…? Is this over one of the buried glaciers? Maybe water vapor is seeping up from below.(edit: I shoulda read your other post better...) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

BSJ · Dec 11, 2008

These are interesting features, to me anyway. They hint at subsurface features implying flow of water or ice. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/6/6/f6dfdf5c-d034-4bb5-96fa-79f52a8575ce.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Dec 12, 2008

The particular features shown look more like dry flows to me.But there are dunes in Terby crater that have what seem to be to bey very convincing examples of fans formed by melting sub surface water  snow. I can't find them at the moment.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

jim48 · Dec 12, 2008

Well of course there is running liquid on Mars. They're busy widening and dredging their canals. It's a massive public works/private industry <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/15/0/cfdfee68-a0aa-4bba-80fc-e7c3cfd3d293.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  infrastructure program slated to take 5 years to complete. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

ckalil · Dec 12, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The particular features shown look more like dry flows to me.But there are dunes in Terby crater that have what seem to be to bey very convincing examples of fans formed by melting sub surface water  snow. I can't find them at the moment.  Posted by jonclarke</DIV>jonclark, do you mean the features on the dunes. If that were true i think there would be some evidence of that after the ice thaws from the area.  If you mean the fans look like dry flow then I don't see that either. The gradient where these features are is very slight. Most definitely not steep enough for dry flow.

silylene old · Dec 12, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>jonclark, do you mean the features on the dunes. If that were true i think there would be some evidence of that after the ice thaws from the area.  If you mean the fans look like dry flow then I don't see that either. The gradient where these features are is very slight. Most definitely not steep enough for dry flow. Posted by ckalil</DIV>ckalil, another requirement for liquid water is that the temperature must be warm enough to melt the ice, and to maintain it as a liquid.  Usually ices which are condensed from the atmosphere are free of salts (other than wind blown salts), and so I don't think that the ice can be considered to be frozen brine.  This means that the melting temperature of the ice would need to be near 0C.   Do you have data that the temepratures in this region are warm enough to melt and maintain water as a liquid?I think the idea of a subsurface volcanic 'hot spot' is unlikely, so solar warming would be needed. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

ckalil · Dec 12, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>ckalil, another requirement for liquid water is that the temperature must be warm enough to melt the ice, and to maintain it as a liquid.  Usually ices which are condensed from the atmosphere are free of salts (other than wind blown salts), and so I don't think that the ice can be considered to be frozen brine.  This means that the melting temperature of the ice would need to be near 0C.   Do you have data that the temepratures in this region are warm enough to melt and maintain water as a liquid?I think the idea of a subsurface volcanic 'hot spot' is unlikely, so solar warming would be needed. Posted by silylene</DIV>Silylene,Here is some information that makes the idea of water pooling in this region plausible:Temperature This water vapor chart shows a high concentration of water vapor (red) at the same latitude of this area of the Chasma Boreale basin (around 84). This corresponds to the exact time of Martian year that the thawing is taking place. If water ice is becoming water vapor, regardless of the process, the ice must be reaching a temperature where it sublimates or melts. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/5/4/8538d436-7263-4993-94d2-11772bd0160b.Medium.png" alt="" width="285" height="97" /> (click to enlarge) Atmospheric Pressure The altitude in Chasma Boreale is 5km (3.11 miles) below the mean Martian altitude which means that the atmospheric pressure is about 9 or 10 millibars. At this pressure water boils (evaporates) at about 7 degC (44.6 degF).  <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/0/5/d02be40b-ac36-4324-8567-6c25a23c74f1.Medium.png" alt="" /> The area where the pooling takes place is a stretch that starts just to the right of the -4900.0 feet altitude label to just above the 5 of the -5000 feet altitude label (click to enlarge)Heat Sources Recent volcanic activity has been detected in the northern region. Although there may be no active volcanic activity above the surface today it is quite possible that the ground temperature along with solar heating in the Chasma Boreale basins is warm enough to melt water ice.  So if the atmospheric pressure is high enough for liquid water to exist and the water vapor chart indicates that there is some kind of conversion of water ice to water vapor it stands to reason that water should exist as a liquid for some small duration in this region at this time of year.

BSJ · Dec 12, 2008

My first thought when seeing the image of the possible pool was "Wet Sebkha." Which is a salt flat that may or may not have dunes on it.Something like this: http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=e...90075,48.485788&spn=0.001641,0.00427&t=k&z=18http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=&ie=UTF8&t=k&ll=28.295463,48.437519&spn=0.077087,0.175095&z=13orhttp://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=&ie=UTF8&t=k&ll=27.21174,48.868904&spn=0.077858,0.175095&z=13Could salts of some sort effect the melting points, I wonder...? All of the imagesI was looking at yesterday are now "Upside-down." Why's that?Just an FYI: When the water table is low, sebkhas are hard and strong enough to land a C130 on. But when wet they will swallow a tank to the turret...!  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

ckalil · Dec 12, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>My first thought when seeing the image of the possible pool was "Wet Sebkha." Which is a salt flat that may or may not have dunes on it.Something like this: http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=&ie=UTF8&ll=26.90075,48.485788&spn=0.001641,0.00427&t=k&z=18Could salts of some sort effect the melting points, I wonder...? All of the imagesI was looking at yesterday are now "Upside-down." Why's that?Just an FYI: When the water table is low, sebkhas are hard and strong enough to land a C130 on. But when wet they will swallow a tank to the turret...!  Posted by BSJ</DIV>BSJ, you can view either the map projected or non map projected versions of the images on the HiRISE site. The map project images are flipped 180 degrees from the RAW images.

BSJ · Dec 12, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>BSJ, you can view either the map projected or non map projected versions of the images on the HiRISE site. The map project images are flipped 180 degrees from the RAW images. Posted by ckalil</DIV>Thanks, Please see the new links. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

silylene old · Dec 12, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Silylene,Here is some information that makes the idea of water pooling in this region plausible:TemperatureThis water vapor chart shows a high concentration of water vapor (red) at the same latitude of this area of the Chasma Boreale basin (around 84). This corresponds to the exact time of Martian year that the thawing is taking place. If water ice is becoming water vapor, regardless of the process, the ice must be reaching a temperature where it sublimates or melts. (click to enlarge) Atmospheric PressureThe altitude in Chasma Boreale is 5km (3.11 miles) below the mean Martian altitude which means that the atmospheric pressure is about 9 or 10 millibars. At this pressure water boils (evaporates) at about 7 degC (44.6 degF).  The area where the pooling takes place is a stretch that starts just to the right of the -4900.0 feet altitude label to just above the 5 of the -5000 feet altitude label (click to enlarge)Heat SourcesRecent volcanic activity has been detected in the northern region. Although there may be no active volcanic activity above the surface today it is quite possible that the ground temperature along with solar heating in the Chasma Boreale basins is warm enough to melt water ice. So if the atmospheric pressure is high enough for liquid water to exist and the water vapor chart indicates that there is some kind of conversion of water ice to water vapor it stands to reason that water should exist as a liquid for some small duration in this region at this time of year.  Posted by ckalil</DIV>Actually, water ice sublimes rather rapidly to water vapor at temperatures below 0C.  No liquid phase is required.On earth, sublimation of ices and snows is a significant factor in the snowpack shrinking every Spring time in the high mountains.  i can send you links if you do not believe, or you can find yourself with google.Sublimation would be more pronounced on Mars at its very low atmospheric pressure.  Water ice could be subliming, and then re-freezing in the atmosphere to form fogs of tiny ice crsytals.  if you recall the recent results of our landers, the temperature in the atmosphere a couple of meters above the surface gets much chillier.  So fog should be expected if any significant amount of water vapor is released (from either sublimation of the solid phase, or from evaporation of the liquid phase).  the presence of fog does not either support nor contradict that whether the source of the water vapor was ice or liquid.What I asked for was data showing temperatures on the surface at these extreme polar latitudes which are above 0C for sustained periods of time.  Unless the temperature is above 0C, there will be no water, and all you are observing is fogs formed from subliming ices.Please look up temperature data for this location.  Perhaps we have orbital infrared data of the surface here at that time of the year which could give us an indication of the surface temperature.  As I recall, we had a pretty good idea of the surface temperature in the location the Phoenix lander landed, and actual measurements by the lander were in quite close agreement with the model which had been based on orbital infrared measurements. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

BSJ · Dec 12, 2008

I wonder if the dunes are really dunes. Could they instead be "drifts" that form around something. A chimney built up by a water vapor fumarole perhaps. That may explain why some of the dark fans not associated with dunes exist. Those could have formed at a time when there wasn’t enough material available to form the drift/dune. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

silylene · Dec 13, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I wonder if the dunes are really dunes. Could they instead be "drifts" that form around something. A chimney built up by a water vapor fumarole perhaps. That may explain why some of the dark fans not associated with dunes exist. Those could have formed at a time when there wasn’t enough material available to form the drift/dune. Posted by BSJ</DIV> I thought you might enjoy this article: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081211112307.htm<h1 class="story">Groundwater Springs Played Important Role In Shaping Mars, Perhaps Sheltering Primitive Life</h1><div id="story"> <img src="http://www.sciencedaily.com/images/2008/12/081211112307.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="300" height="165" /> <div id="caption" style="padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:10px;padding-top:5px">Iani Chaos on Mars, an area where Light Toned Deposits, or LTD, are known to be present. An analysis of data and images from Mars Express suggests that several LTD, some of the least understood structures on Mars, were formed when large amounts of groundwater burst on to the surface. Scientists propose that groundwater had a greater role in shaping the martian surface than previously believed, and may have sheltered primitive life forms as the planet started drying up. This image was obtained with the High Resolution Stereo Camera on board ESA's Mars Express spacecraft. (Credit: ESA/DLR/FU Berlin (G. Neukum))</div>ScienceDaily (Dec. 12, 2008) — Data and images from Mars Express suggest that several Light Toned Deposits, some of the least understood features on Mars, were formed when large amounts of groundwater burst on to the surface. Scientists propose that groundwater had a greater role in shaping the martian surface than previously believed, and may have sheltered primitive life forms as the planet started drying up.Light Toned Deposits (LTDs) - martian sediments that most closely resemble sediments on Earth - are some of the most mysterious sediments on Mars. Causes for their origin remain unknown. Until now, different mechanisms, including volcanic processes, have been proposed for their formation.LTDs were first discovered by the Viking spacecraft in the late 1970s and have since been at the centre of scientific debate. These deposits occur on a large scale in Arabia Terra, Chaotic Terrain and Valles Marineris, close to the Tharsis volcanic bulge.Now, based on Mars Express data, scientists propose that these sediments are actually younger than originally believed. Rossi and colleagues report their findings in a paper published in September this year. They have proposed that several LTDs may have been deposited by large-scale springs of groundwater that burst on to the surface, possibly at different times.Analysis indicates that ground water had a more wide-ranging and important role in martian history than previously believed. Hydrated minerals, relatively young in age, have been found in the region.Given that the deposits are relatively young in age, and associated with water, they may also have sheltered microbial life from the drier and harsher climate in more recent times on Mars, possibly eliminating the need for a stable atmosphere or a permanent water body.</div> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> petet = silylenePlease, please give me my handle back ! </div>

JonClarke · Dec 13, 2008

I suspect a sptring origin is quite plausible for some of the LTDs.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

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