http://www.space.com/adastra/adastra_isdc_rutan_060504.html<br /><br />there you have it...from the man himself! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>
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“The budget forecast [for NASA] is to go out and spend hundreds of billions of dollar to go to Mars and yet you don’t have the courage to go back to the Hubble … it looks like you got the wrong guys doing it,” Rutan concluded.<br /><br />I would have to agree. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
Of course he also made mention of the simple base problem of a congress that expects fantastic results from a pennywise budget. Here I absolutely agree with him, that is exactly why the CEV is designed so conservatively, there just isn't enough money to take the kind of chances that were routinely taken during the 1960's. And heaven knows where the kind of tolerance for mistakes like there was then has gone to. So under these circumstances what do people exprect from NASA, bold new proposals? Ha! were lucky to have even the current proposals!<br /><br />However, I fully expect that Burt Rutan may very well get his big chance here, not only is NASA quite probably never going back to Hubble, but they might even never fly a shuttle again! If this happens then on another thread I have just been told rather emphatically that the ISS would never be finished either. I personally don't think this is true as the other people and countries involved would also be going down big over such a fiasco, and so I think some other way to finish the ISS would still be found!<br /><br />But if both the shuttle and the ISS are going to turn out to really be failures, then I fully expect NASA itself to go under also! If this happens perhaps all these more ambitious people such as Burt Rutan, Elon Musk and the others may even become the new NASA itself, with far more funding than the ever dreamed that they would have! Maybe they can actually do what they say they can do. If NASA does go down over the shuttle and ISS then I would hope that they can do what they say, as they will be the only game in town for humanity in space from the US! <br /><br />And even though I have supported NASA, the shuttle, and the ISS in the past, I have also said quite truthfully that I really don't care WHO gets humanity into space in a big way I just want SOMEBODY to do it!
Not very suprising really. Rutan has had it in for NASA for quite some time (and in some cases his criticisms are right on the money).
Shuttle became mired in trying to get the military to help pay for it and ISS is at a point components will be obsolete before they get launched.<br /><br />The ISS might just become useful, if we find a way to get there and back, but Shuttle just won't, or hasn't, worked.<br /><br />I'm all for a final Shuttle to keep the Hubble working and depending on new ideas to complete or add to the ISS as well building other facilities. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
Rutan is for innovation and researching new ways to do things, which NASA's manned space flight is going away from. Rutan is big into, "lets think of a completely new way to do this" look at the planes he has created and you will see what i'm talkin about...<br /><br />NASA has done some research that I am sure Rutan fully approves of like most of the aeronautic research so I am not sure you can say hes against NASA but more of against the recent aims of NASA's manned space flight. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
Just maybe thats the right approach. <br /><br />Rutan has designed a number of aircraft that push the envelope. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
transcript from Rutan interview about his statement<br /><br />reporter: Mr Rutan, could you describe what this alternative breakthrough prone environment exactly means?<br /><br />Rutan: MMmhhfFFffmmFFmmmHHHpp! (*<br /><br /><br /><br />(* Dunno! Help me get this foot out of my mouth!)
I am a great admirer of Rutan, salute his achgievements, and wish his plans the very best. I hope he and Virgin Galactic suceed and and fairly confident they will.<br /><br />Since he has never put anything into orbit, let alone done something hard like go to the Moon or build a space station he is like a dinghy builder criticising the US navy's approach to the construction and operation of 100,000 tonne aircraft carriers. "Look, they are built out of all that wasteful steel! And why do they need a crew of 4,000? They could be sailed with only a couple of dozen! And why all the extra reactors? You could get by with one or even none!"<br /><br />I notice he has no alternative architecture in mind for a return to the Moon and Mars. Let him come up with one and we will see how much better it is than anyone elses.<br /><br />Jon<br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em> Arthur Clarke</p> </div>
I've said it before and I'll be happy to say it again. Rutan does not have any idea of what it takes to safely transport people to and from low Earth orbit, and no clue at all when it comes to going to the Moon or Mars.<br /><br />What has Rutan done in space? He has created a "spaceship" just able to get its nose over 100 km altitude (no speed). It flew 3 times (at least 1 of those flights had quite serious stability problems).<br /><br />And now he's the expert of everything.<br /><br />At the maximum altitude of SpaceShipOne (which Rutan calls "space"), the Space Shuttles already experience a lot of heating from atmospheric friction during reentry. And if Rutan manages to get his aircraft up to, say 200-400 km altitude, that's only a few percent of the energy he needs to put into his craft if he wants to accelerate to the 25,000 km/h he needs to go orbital. Even Rutan's spacecraft will need a serious heat shield for the reentry if he ever manages to construct an orbital vehicle.<br /><br />And that's just low Earth orbit. If you want to go to the moon, you need life support for your chosen number of astronauts for the duration of the journey, you need a lander with enough fuel to get down on the surface and still have enough fuel to get back up into lunar orbit. You need a rocket engine and fuel enough to accelerate all this from low Earth orbit to the moon, slow down to settle into lunar orbit, and accelerate away from the moon when the job is done. All this energy must be stored in the form of some sort of fuel and oxidizer. All this fuel and oxidizer must be transported from the ground into space. That requires a huge launch vehicle. There's no White Knight that can rescue you from that fact.<br /><br />Or, maybe you want to forget about the moon and Mars, and forget about Earth orbit, and just fly billionaires into a stall at 100 km altitude (heck, after a few years of operation, maybe the price gets so low that even millionaires can make the trip!).<br /><br />The Unite <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff9900">----------------------------------</font></p><p><font color="#ff9900">My minds have many opinions</font></p> </div>
rfoshaug:<br />I've said it before and I'll be happy to say it again. Rutan does not have any idea of what it takes to safely transport people to and from low Earth orbit, and no clue at all when it comes to going to the Moon or Mars. <br /><br />What has Rutan done in space? He has created a "spaceship" just able to get its nose over 100 km altitude (no speed). It flew 3 times (at least 1 of those flights had quite serious stability problems).<br /><br />Me:<br />You must personally know Burt Rutan and are privvy to his plans to be so certain he has no clue as to how to get to orbit and to the moon. What has he done in space? Taken the first steps that may allow him or someone else to take the steps required to reach low orbit and beyond.<br /><br />NASA is still the organization for doing the Moon and Mars for now. The problem is, there is not enough resource being committed to get the job done and once Bush is out of office, I suspect the whole effort will wither and die. At least Rutan has the right idea. I don't think anyone ever said he was the expert at everything. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>
NASA should be given a bigger budget; it’s only got the money for an update of Apollo with no R&R. It’s has had to cut aeronautics and science to the bone to make even this possible.<br /><br />NASA needs to have a proper size budget, for aeronautics, science and space exploration. If the US Government wants a new project then they should allocate more money not cut money from other projects. Think what new technology has been lost over the last 10 years because of politics and lack of resources; X33, X34, X37, X38, RS-84 TW-107 GTX, X43C, X43B etc…<br /><br />If just 1% of the US military budget was given to NASA all the above programs could have been completed. <br />
Got that right! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>
WOW! I sort of expected to see this turn into another shuttle, ISS, and NASA bashing thread. Instead I see the kind of support here that has been sadly lacking in congress for decades. There just may still be hope after all!<br /><br />I also noticed where Rutan was a least honest enough to state that he wouldn't HAVE Griffin's job!<br /><br />Needless to say that I absolutely agree with the tone of the posts on this thread!<br /><br />NASA's biggest problem of congress expecting them to give BMW type of performance on a Yugo budget is strangely enough also Burt Rutan’s problem to some degree! Oh, he is probably getting enough funding for a true tourist type of ride to LEO, but this is a for profit venture! Not only must he provide a total accident free and reliable means to doing these tourist flights to sub orbital space, he must over a reasonable time show that it can also make reasonable profits. A far larger task that even winning the X-prize was!<br /><br />Then he must expand his efforts into the true hypersonic area with all the problems of thermal protection! If he can do this we might even have the Holy Grail of aerodynamics. A hypersonic less than two hour ride to anywhere on the earth, for paying passengers to land at specially prepared airports throughout the world. Only then would he have the necessary backing and monetary power to even tackle LEO for tourists at a for profit enterprise.<br /><br />He is honest enough to estimate that it will be at least a decade before he will have regular operations into LEO. At least he is aware of the vast difference between what he has done and true orbital flight! I really like this fellow, and wish him all the luck in the world!<br /><br />However, when you consider the problems of going back to the moon to stay this time, and eventually building up a true space infrastructure to have an actual base(s) on the moon, it will be many decades before such efforts as Burt Rutan's make the moon a true tourist spot! Hec
The problem is, all those programs got started and never finished. Wouldn't it have been much nicer if just ONE had made it past the prototype stages?<br />I'm sure the money wasted on tens of projects would have been enough to finish one! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>
we should compare apples to apples. In this case, the closest aircraft to SS1 developed by the govt is the X15.<br />Granted the X15 went up to Mach 6, but SS1 can carry three people, so that evens out in terms of costs I would say, plus NASA had the use of a B52 rather than developing sormthing from scratch.<br />So...how much has the X15 project cost in today's money?<br />well, somebody's got all that figured out:<br /><br />http://www.thespacereview.com/article/204/1<br /><br />There's no doubt Rutan can do it on the cheap! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>
Well of COURSE he'd say that!! But it is hypocrisy in a way. SS1 & SS2 are TOYS. Magnificent toys to be sure, but toys nonetheless. I respect the man a lot but he's been a Nasa basher forever. If he claims the CEV is 'archeology' he MUST also acknowledge that large, fully reusable and 'sexy' spaceplanes cannot be afforded by Nasa and aren't much use beyond low Earth Orbit, unless one plans to fly in the Venusian or Titan atmospheres. <br /><br />Also, the T-Space CXV design, which I LOVE (strongly affiliated with Burt Rutan), could easily be described as a flying badminton shuttlecock or washing tub, if you were only interested in being unkind with just a pinch of added truth. Also, it's shape is based on the 50 year-old Corona satellite re-entry vehicle. There's some good archaeology for ya!!<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p>One Percent of Federal Funding For Space: America <strong><em><u>CAN</u></em></strong> Afford it!! LEO is a <strong><em>Prison</em></strong> -- It's time for a <em><strong>JAILBREAK</strong></em>!!</p> </div>
I think Rutan and Griffin are playing a very careful game of "good cop/bad cop" (which is which depends on your point of view!) Griffin is going with a low key approach for the whole constellation program. I think this is a good idea. After 40 years of the NASA publicity machine they finally realized that reality can never live up to expectations. This isn't that big of a deal when you buy a $5 razor that doesn't perform as well as the ads implied, but when you run a multi-billion dollar agency it can cause a lot of resentment. Even as a die hard space cadet I have problems finding much info on VSE. Compare this to when the shuttle was in development and we were constantly inundated with images of space stations, moon bases, O'Neil colonies etc. For the average American VSE is still flying under the radar--which is a good thing I think. <br /><br />Rutan's role is to shame congress into putting their money (OK, OUR money) where their mouths are by funding NASA and encouraging private development--you have to have both. Rutan is the crotchety, angry John the Baptist to Griffin's quiet, careful Jesus!
<font color="yellow">"Granted the X15 went up to Mach 6, but SS1 can carry three people, so that evens out in terms of costs I would say"</font><br /><br />BS, NASA could have built 3-crew X-15 with about the same money, but the mission was not to investigate suborbital tourism, it was to study <i>hyper</i>sonic flight.<br /><br />SS1 mission was to send equivalent mass of three people to 100km which doesn't require speeds that high. SS1 would melt away if it somehow were propelled to mach 6+.<br /><br />If someone manages to just partially repeat half century old feat cheaper than it was originally done, that is not a massive 'breakthrough', that should be norm.<br /><br />
<font color="yellow">Also, the T-Space CXV design, which I LOVE (strongly affiliated with Burt Rutan), could easily be described as a flying badminton shuttlecock or washing tub, if you were only interested in being unkind with just a pinch of added truth. Also, it's shape is based on the 50 year-old Corona satellite re-entry vehicle. There's some good archaeology for ya!! </font><br /><br />mmm let's not compare TSpace with NASA when it comes to money.<br />If TSpace with their budget can put even one person in LEO, NASA should be able to build a hundred person fully reusable SSTO in no time at all with THEIR budget 
<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>
<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>depends what you understand by breakthrough.<br />I think CATS is much more of a breakthrough than going to the Moon again. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>
I think "we" is more like the Vikings than the Spaniards. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>
<font color="yellow">"I think CATS is much more of a breakthrough than going to the Moon again."</font><br /><br />IMO CATS does not require any technical breakthroughs, just willing paying customers and competition. What has Rutan done to make CATS happen? (I don't count couple minutes hops as access to space)
I agree. I don't see him bashing NASA, per se, and he's actually been very supportive of Griffin. What I see him bashing is the budget constraints and expectations put on NASA. If they can't get funding to do the job, then they have no choice but to use what they already have, and cut cost everywhere they can. I know he and Griffin have met several times, and I've always gotten a positive feeling about those meetings. NASA literally cannot afford to be innovative and develop new technologies. As he said, I wouldn't want Griffin's job. He's been directed to do some big things, with no support to get the job done.<br /><br />Rae<br />A
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