Salvage rights for Apollo sites?

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uberhund

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Anybody know what US policy could be regarding other nations salvaging hardware and or making tourist attractions of the numerous US landing sites, manned and unmanned, on the Moon? I'm curious what response is even possible when/if China puts Apollo 11 artifacts into their museums and on eBay.
 
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uberhund

Guest
Yep. That's what I was looking for, at least on the international level. Thanks for the links Woggles.
 
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samkent

Guest
I would like to think Apollo 11 would be universally considered off limits. Although a tourist tram from a half mile or so might work.

But the rest of them are fair game for tourists.
 
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Yuri_Armstrong

Guest
Those are historical landing sites and should be protected as such. It would be an outrage if any country or company tried to salvage materials from the sites or disturb them.
 
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uberhund

Guest
I agree with you Yuri, but I'm reminded that neither the French nor the British were the least bit bashful when it came to plundering the archeological sites of Egypt.
 
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Yuri_Armstrong

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uberhund":2hn3aw4v said:
I agree with you Yuri, but I'm reminded that neither the French nor the British were the least bit bashful when it came to plundering the archeological sites of Egypt.
I don't think the situation will be similar. The first people going back to the moon will be scientists and astronauts, and I expect private companies to set up small bases there first too. I think the apollo sites will be adequately protected.
 
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emudude

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Yuri_Armstrong":1ufuqnmh said:
uberhund":1ufuqnmh said:
I agree with you Yuri, but I'm reminded that neither the French nor the British were the least bit bashful when it came to plundering the archeological sites of Egypt.
I don't think the situation will be similar. The first people going back to the moon will be scientists and astronauts, and I expect private companies to set up small bases there first too. I think the apollo sites will be adequately protected.
I agree, the situation is completely different...we would not be doing research on the sites; if the ancient Egyptians had a massive mission control creating logs and taking footage of the pyramids being built, then the situation would be the same.
 
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uberhund

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Yuri_Armstrong":39e2htz1 said:
I don't think the situation will be similar. The first people going back to the moon will be scientists and astronauts, and I expect private companies to set up small bases there first too. I think the apollo sites will be adequately protected.
I envy your faith in human nature. I'm afraid I can't be so generous, because the situation is identical to the exploitation of Egyptian artifacts. Even the Pharaohs couldn't protect their tombs from their own people.

The French and British also sent their best scientists of the day to Egypt to supervise the plundering. World travelers at the time were something akin to our Mission Specialists today.

As for private companies: The French and British had these also. Remember, British companies harvested mummies from the vast number of tombs in Egypt and exported them around the world to be used as party favors and fuel, for crying out loud. Anything for a profit. Apollo artifacts would be profitable.

I know I'd buy a piece of the Apollo 11 lander if it were affordable and legal.
 
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SteveCNC

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uberhund":166r0p7p said:
I know I'd buy a piece of the Apollo 11 lander if it were affordable and legal.
I wouldn't include the word legal but if nothing else to get said item off the black market and back where it belongs however I share your fear that they are loot waiting to be plundered by the first pirate to hit the moon . Unless there is some definative way of preventing it some day it will happen .
 
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uberhund

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I wonder what Apollo 11 artifact would fetch the most on eBay? The flight computer? I'd love to have that - try to get it working again. Or the ascent engine circuit breaker that Buzz had to repair in-situ? The mind reels...
 
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MarkStanaway

Guest
'I wonder what Apollo 11 artifact would fetch the most on eBay? The flight computer? I'd love to have that - try to get it working again. Or the ascent engine circuit breaker that Buzz had to repair? The mind reels...'

You would have to be pretty lucky to do that. It's probably scattered in a million pieces across the surface when the ascent stage was deorbited after Armstrong and Aldrin transferred to Columbia
 
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SteveCNC

Guest
I seen the prototype of one of the apollo guidence control computers (my father was an electronics engineer) but it was what was known as a wire-wrap board well not just one but many of them , I wonder if the real one was also a wire-wrap ? If so deciphering the layout would be rediculas .
 
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neutrino78x

Guest
uberhund":nc6py7dz said:
Yuri_Armstrong":nc6py7dz said:
I don't think the situation will be similar. The first people going back to the moon will be scientists and astronauts, and I expect private companies to set up small bases there first too. I think the apollo sites will be adequately protected.
I envy your faith in human nature. I'm afraid I can't be so generous, because the situation is identical to the exploitation of Egyptian artifacts. Even the Pharaohs couldn't protect their tombs from their own people.
I'm with Yuri. Ancient Egypt no longer existed when the pyramids were plundered. The great Nation of the United States of America, the Power and Glory of which is Greater than Ancient Egypt, still exists, and possesses a nuclear arsenal.

--Brian
 
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Yuri_Armstrong

Guest
uberhund":i595zhub said:
Yuri_Armstrong":i595zhub said:
I don't think the situation will be similar. The first people going back to the moon will be scientists and astronauts, and I expect private companies to set up small bases there first too. I think the apollo sites will be adequately protected.
I envy your faith in human nature. I'm afraid I can't be so generous, because the situation is identical to the exploitation of Egyptian artifacts. Even the Pharaohs couldn't protect their tombs from their own people.

The French and British also sent their best scientists of the day to Egypt to supervise the plundering. World travelers at the time were something akin to our Mission Specialists today.

As for private companies: The French and British had these also. Remember, British companies harvested mummies from the vast number of tombs in Egypt and exported them around the world to be used as party favors and fuel, for crying out loud. Anything for a profit. Apollo artifacts would be profitable.

I know I'd buy a piece of the Apollo 11 lander if it were affordable and legal.
I'm afraid it's not going to be as simple as a massive rush of people plundering the Apollo sites. People on the moon will be slow and gradual, and those landing sites are all property of the United States. I have no doubt the government will protect them as such. Especially because of the outrage it would cause by someone stealing and violating those historical sites, I don't see that happening.
 
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uberhund

Guest
It just occurred to me - the harvest has already started. Apollo 12 brought back several pieces of Surveyor III. The Pharaohs would steal from each others tombs as well.

Yuri_Armstrong":2fh9azfi said:
those landing sites are all property of the United States.
Only in our minds. I recall that the Soviets and the US signed a treaty to declare the Moon open, like the South Pole. But China did not sign, and the Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore. The UN is completely impotent when it comes to enforcement. So what court would adjudicate claims to this effect? At the end of the day, only the court of the 82nd Airborne would have jurisdiction over lunar territorial challenges.

Yuri_Armstrong":2fh9azfi said:
I have no doubt the government will protect them as such.
Ach. Where was the US Government when minuscule North Korea absconded with the fully intact USS Pueblo and her crew (which is still their #1 tourist attraction, incidentally)? How much more impotent the US will be when the trespasser is China.
 
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Polishguy

Guest
I'd be interested to know aoout official policy on surplus Apollo hardware. Say we were to go back to the Moon on the cheapest spacecraft possible, an open-cockpit lander. To save weight in tools, it would make sense to use the geology equipment left at the Apollo sites. Could a future astronaut take the hammers and shovels and drills and the Lunar Rovers (swap out the batteries with new ones)? Would certainly make a future mission less complicated.
 
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uberhund

Guest
Interesting idea, Polishguy, but the original landing sites selected on the basis of safety and fuel efficiency, rather than on the their scientific value. Consequently, they were all equatorial and near-side.

Evidently, the real action on the Moon these days is polar, inside craters where there is no sunlight. Polar landers interested in science would need to be much more robust than the Apollo vintage.

But - if the sole purpose was to harvest Apollo artifacts as archeological digs (and not perform real science) - then your idea seems perfect for a corporate-funded expedition - like the companies that now harvest souvenirs from Titanic.
 
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SteveCNC

Guest
uberhund":3lu6q6t4 said:
Interesting idea, Polishguy, but the original landing sites selected on the basis of safety and fuel efficiency, rather than on the their scientific value. Consequently, they were all equatorial and near-side.

Evidently, the real action on the Moon these days is polar, inside craters where there is no sunlight. Polar landers interested in science would need to be much more robust than the Apollo vintage.

But - if the sole purpose was to harvest Apollo artifacts as archeological digs (and not perform real science) - then your idea seems perfect for a corporate-funded expedition - like the companies that now harvest souvenirs from Titanic.
I'm sure your right about that , anyone wanting to go after those sites at least in the early days of moon complex building would have a bit of a drive ahead of them . The moon may be small compared to earth but it's still pretty good sized compared to us . Although now that I think about it , with the way the sunlight cycle is on the moon as long as you can do the trip there and back within say 10 days and your power requirements/food/air could be met with what you can carry and 24hour straight sunlight it could be done . A trip of about 1700 miles from the pole to the equador roughly yeah it could be done . But it would be a scary trip , not that just getting on the moon wasn't but the risk vs reward just dosen't seem good enough .
 
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Yuri_Armstrong

Guest
uberhund":2dbv6gnp said:
It just occurred to me - the harvest has already started. Apollo 12 brought back several pieces of Surveyor III. The Pharaohs would steal from each others tombs as well.

Yuri_Armstrong":2dbv6gnp said:
those landing sites are all property of the United States.
Only in our minds. I recall that the Soviets and the US signed a treaty to declare the Moon open, like the South Pole. But China did not sign, and the Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore. The UN is completely impotent when it comes to enforcement. So what court would adjudicate claims to this effect? At the end of the day, only the court of the 82nd Airborne would have jurisdiction over lunar territorial challenges.

Yuri_Armstrong":2dbv6gnp said:
I have no doubt the government will protect them as such.
Ach. Where was the US Government when minuscule North Korea absconded with the fully intact USS Pueblo and her crew (which is still their #1 tourist attraction, incidentally)? How much more impotent the US will be when the trespasser is China.
You're overreacting. Nobody is going to be disturbing those sites. You are asking for policy information that's not really out there right now because nobody is planning on salvaging Apollo landing materials. China is not North Korea anyway. I don't think your comparisons really work here because the moon is 200,000 miles away and is not reached easily. ANYBODY disturbing the apollo landing sites will definitely be noticed. And I'd bet the astronauts who were in them would have a thing or two to say about someone stealing their stuff :)
 
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neutrino78x

Guest
uberhund":j2a4w6fy said:
Evidently, the real action on the Moon these days is polar, inside craters where there is no sunlight. Polar landers interested in science would need to be much more robust than the Apollo vintage.
Polar, yes, but not inside the crater. The first Moon bases would be in areas of "eternal sunshine", because then you can put the solar panel there and have power all the time.

--Brian
 
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Space_Architect

Guest
I would imagine that there'd be an enclosure of some sort to prevent contamination of those sites. Even walking around in the area of those sites contaminates them. Not only will future space inhabitants need to protect the hardware, but they'll also need to protect the footprints and tracks. Remember those footprints will never erode and they'll be around for millions, if not billions, of years. Defiling a site will likewise be enshrined forever.
 
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annodomini2

Guest
neutrino78x":2km2r26n said:
uberhund":2km2r26n said:
Evidently, the real action on the Moon these days is polar, inside craters where there is no sunlight. Polar landers interested in science would need to be much more robust than the Apollo vintage.
Polar, yes, but not inside the crater. The first Moon bases would be in areas of "eternal sunshine", because then you can put the solar panel there and have power all the time.

--Brian
They'll put the base inside the crater and the solar panel outside.

The shaded area inside the crater will offer additional protection from solar radiation.
 
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