Selenology (Lunar Science) To-Do list

spacester · Nov 11, 2005

I know there is a lot of science to be done on the moon, but I'm just a stupid engineer, so I don't always remember what all those things are, and the details and such. But over on another thread I won't bother to link to, a certain poster seems to think the list is the null set. So I thought I'd start this thread and I'm hoping that those interested in lunar science could help me put together a list. Given power and robots and people, what kind of science payloads would you recommend for lunar science, planetary science, and exploration? (edit: Added 'Selenology' to the title) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Nov 11, 2005

Good question. Here's my list 1 GEOLOGY/GEOPHYSICS 1.1 Polar ice deposits - do they exist, how extensive, what is their age, what is their thickness, how do they form, what is their composition, are they a potential resource? Some questions may be answered by rovers and sample return missions, but full investigation will require astronauts on site. 1.2 Aitkin Basin - does it really reach down to the lunar mantle, what has been its influence on lunar crustal and regolith evolution, what does it tell us about the evolution of the lunar interior? Probably answerable by a sample return mission possibly with a rover to collect samples. However as the region is also of interest because of possible ice, it is an ideal target for human missions. 1.3 Lunar transient phenomena - do they exist, what is their composition, how are they triggered, what do they tell us about lunar volatile inventories, is there a link to volcanism, are they pointers to lunar resources? Sites like Alphonsus, Aristarchus would be a good place to start. Possibly preliminary visits by rovers, with follow up by human missions. 1.4 Farside highland crust - is it different in composition from nearside crust? Could be answered by sample return missions, high capability rovers, or human exploration. 1.5 Farside mare basalts - are these small, isolated maria different in detailed composition to nearside maria? Again could be answered by sample return missions, high capability rovers, or human exploration. 1.6 Solar wind flux - because the moon passes through the earth's magnetotail as it orbits and it is tidally locked with one face to the earth, different parts of the moon get very different levels of exposure to the solar wind. Questions - how does the predicted flux compare with measured, are the regional variations in implanted solar wind materials in the regolith, what implications does this have for lunar facilities, are there <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

Swampcat · Nov 11, 2005

Excellent post, Jon. Thanks. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

bonzelite · Nov 11, 2005

that's a pretty thorough list. wow. pretty much, if humanity is going to become seafaring in any capacity, the moon is the best place to begin this giant leap for mankind. virtually anything that can possibly be tested and examined and engineered for human existence outside of the earth's environment can be done on the moon. and it's only a few miles away.

Swampcat · Nov 11, 2005

"...if humanity is going to become seafaring..." "seafaring?" <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

telfrow · Nov 11, 2005

As always, Jon, thoughtful, insightful and thorough. Excellent post. Thank you. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

bonzelite · Nov 11, 2005

spacefaring --i was asleep. man that was a dumb error! i think we became seafaring sometime in the bronze age or before.

spacester · Nov 11, 2005

Just a few ideas! ROTFL Jon, you rock! Very impressive list, that was pretty much just off the top of your head, wasn't it? Pretty cool. IOW, I'm rather speechless at the breadth of your list, I'll be back after I catch my breath, lol. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Nov 11, 2005

"become seafaring in any capacity" A poetic slip. Across the sea of stars........ <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Nov 11, 2005

"Jon, you rock!" the ultimate compliment to a geologist! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

centsworth_II · Nov 11, 2005

Here's one that really grabs me by the imagination. One is very hard put to find any Earth rocks older than 3 billion years due to tectonic recycling and weathering. However, Earth rocks 4 billion years or older may be found on the Moon. These may hold further clues to the origin of life. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Nov 11, 2005

That would be an amazing discovery! I wonder what the chances are of a rock surviving 4 billion years of micrometeorite erosion are? Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

bonzelite · Nov 12, 2005

"become seafaring in any capacity" A poetic slip. Across the sea of stars........ nice. thanks. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

teije · Nov 12, 2005

Jon, excellent post as already stated by several others. Question: Did you list your primary science goals in any order of priority? (Apart from 1&2 being primary and 3&4 being secondary) Also, 1.3: Lunar transient phenomena. I may be ignorant, but I have no clue what those are. Can you explain? Cheers! Teije

JonClarke · Nov 12, 2005

Thanks again. As for priority, well, they are all important, what neds to be thought out is sequencing of events, as a lunar program moves from robotic missions to short visits to tending a facility to continous operations. Lunar transient phenomena have been reported for over 100 years. They are brief glows that last a few hours or days, visible on the dark side, or occasionally as blurrying of features on the day side. Many can be dismissed as optical illusions, but some are real, they cluster round several features like Alphonsus and Aristarchus. At least one was documented spectroscopically, an one of the Apollo instruements on the moon detected several episodes of gas release. One of the Rangers, 9, I think, took close ups of Alphonsus, revealing dark rimmed craters suggestive of venting. The gases are thought to be rich in carbon, and sulphur and may contain some hydrogen as well. Others may be clouds of dust lifted by electrostatic replusion. Observed impacts also fall inot this category. See http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~rhill/alpo/lunarstuff/ltp.html and http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/T/TLP.html Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

igorsboss · Nov 13, 2005

Oh, my... I bet I'm going to get in BIG trouble for this post.... And I really do support the space program... HUMBLY SUBMITTED WITH ALL DUE RESPECT... I'd like to take a critical look at Jon's (excellent) post... I think it is important that we pay particular interest to science which has terrestrial benefits, or to experiments which uniquely benefit from a lunar environment. 1. Geology/Geophysics is generally Lunology/Lunophysics. These are questions we would naturally ask once we're ALREADY at the moon. Instead, I'd like to hear questions which COMPELL US TO GO to the moon. (particularly: 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, 1.7) 1.6: Solar wind flux can be measured by a free-flight vehicle. No need for a moon base. 2) Astronomy Farside radioastronomy is a great idea that can only happen on the moon, because of the shield benefit that Jon states. However, other astronomy benefits from the stability of free flight microgravity. 3. Surface operations Many of these can be simulated on Earth: 3.1, 3.2, 3.6 Some are again only interesting once we get there, without first compelling us to go: 3.3, 3.4, 3.5, 3.7 4) Biomedical research Agreed, these experiments (4.1, 4.2, 4.3) can't be simulated, but what is compelling about 1/6th gravity miomedical experiments? 5) ISRU: 5.1 through 5.6 are very good questions! We might learn new methods for terrestrial use.

JonClarke · Nov 13, 2005

All good discussion questions <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> ! They will help us refine the issues, I am sure. 1 I think Selenology is the prefered term, although sadly it has not become common usage. Items 1.1-1.5 and 1.7. I am biased of course, but I would consider seeking answers to old questions from centuries of lunar observations and new questions from the first era of lunar exploration of the 60's and 70's as reasons to go. All science, and all exploration is driven by this quest to understand the unknown. There are also economic rewards as well, research into the lunar surface is directly relevant to identifying potential resources and the issues associated with their extraction. We need to know the volatile inventory, we need to bulk samples of lunar materials for processing experiments. We also have no other likely way of retriving smaples from the very early earth except from the Moon's surface. There might be some bits floating in solar orbit, but the chances of locating, identifying and retriving them is much lower. 1.6 If all you are interested in is the solar wind of itself, you are right. However, the lunar surface not only experiences the solar wind, but records a history. A history of solar wind activity going back millions or billions of years would be very valuable to people interested in solar variability and terrestrial climate, for example. Also, the intensity with which the solar wind impinges on the lunar surface will influence the regolith concentrations of hydrogen and He3, both potential resources. Basic research into this topicwill help us in the ISRU questions of where and how to extract resources. 2. I agree, for the IR to gamma wavelengths it seems to be swings and round abouts. You gain from a stable platform but you lose with the deployment costs on the lunar surface and, possibly, problems with dust collection. But it would be nice to see some astr <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

spacester · Nov 13, 2005

Tourism Supports Selenology <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> ‘Oh no,’ Jon says, ‘here we go again’ . . . lol . . . I see the potential here for a fun three-way (or more) debate. Hopefully my position won’t be too crazy . . . . and the other two are pretty solid . . . but what the heck. *** Some ‘facts’, if you will: Science is very important but it is not the *only* purpose for Man on the moon. It may or may not be the *main* purpose. At the same time it is very important that science not get left behind if the focus on commercial activity bears fruit, especially including Pure Science in this warning. It is in our best interest to develop a list of Compelling Reasons for man on moon. Pure Science is easily criticized in the popular media and also is hard to understand for the general public, so there is a built-in real-world conflict between Pure Science and Compelling Reasons. Some of this ‘artificial’ conflict spills over into Applied Research. *** I’m guessing that the above three statements will get a consensus endorsement. To me they are more statement of facts than opinions, but YMMV. They are the first three steps of my logic as I try to help develop our list of Compelling Reasons. The next step is where I may depart too much from the thinking of others. I’ve been saying it for years with a bit of positive feedback, and no one has ever even really tried to refute it, so at some level I can state it as a fact. *** The Primary Economic Resource on the moon is BEING THERE *** Given the above four ‘Facts’, we have some context to make plans for the moon. My immediate conclusion is that ‘establishing a presence’becomes the priority. Sadly for me, <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> not everyone is going to draw that same first conclusion, even if they followed me all the way and accepted the <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Nov 14, 2005

Your OP said "Given power and robots and people, what kind of science payloads would you recommend for lunar science, planetary science, and exploration?" Shifting the discussion to space tourism and other commercial activity as a way of funding lunar exploration is moving the goal posts significantly. There is a lot we will have to learn about living and working on the moon before we can talk about space tourism. The sort of things I listed about selenology, resources, radiation environment, engineering issues, human factors, and biomedicine. Tourists on the moon will have to be as mature a technology as flying to the ISS before tourism is feasible. So maybe by 2030? We might have people doing Zond-type loops round the moon before then, although that market has yet to be tested. In the meantime the research will have to be done, the example you list of lunar oxygen and glass and metals all come under item 5 in my list. The feasibility of such processes will have to be demonstrated first, under lunar conditions, followed by application to subsistence needs before commerical applications can be realistically considered. So may I suggest that we restrict our discussion of the sort of lunar research that will carried out during VSE and leave the more long term possibilities to other threads? Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

spacester · Nov 14, 2005

So may I suggest that we restrict our discussion of the sort of lunar research that will carried out during VSE and leave the more long term possibilities to other threads? You bet, Jon, that works for me. The only reason I moved the goalposts is that you scored a touchdown so easily! LOL I'll put the goalposts back now, we can consider that last post of mine, and the rest of this one, as a diversion. I do need to stipulate that I disagree with you on just what the long term possibilities are, than I can move forward. This is a necessary diversion however, because as I said I want to defuse something that could derail a thread that is off to such a terrific start. Simply put, I have a much different time scale and list of priorities than you do. (Yet I want to maximize Selenology at the same time) In my visions the very first practical payload is a solar powered trial glass factory, landing before 2010. I'm interested in the shortest path to an economically viable value-added activity, you're interested in an organized pursuit of knowledge. I certainly cannot say that my pursuit of economic activity is more noble than your pursuit of knowledge, can I? Yet I can say that Lunar Tourism can help support Selenology. Hear me out please. I'm not talking so much about actual tourists on the ground sipping margaritas, as the mere potential for tourists. I want to exploit the primary resource on the moon - BEING THERE - just on its potential alone. Do you see what I'm getting at? I just want to know that you see what I'm getting at, and then we'll talk strictly in terms of VSE / ESAS / mainstream science, is that a deal? I'm saying that if we merely start down the road of building a big ol' habitat for a future - even if 20, 30, 40 years in the future - population of humans in the hundreds, if we even start down that road, we can stimulate interest in the moon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Nov 14, 2005

Well, the place so start for lunar tourism would be the Zond type flyby. That could be done now, using existing technology. Has anyone looked at the market size for the sort of price the Russians are asking for these flights? The advantage of lunar tourism is that it does not assume we can live and work on the Moon, or the commerical development of lunar resources, or any development of a lunar legistative framework, which is what you need for other commerical goals. All you need to assume is an existing technology, the VSE architecture will do fine (or Soyuz + booster for flyby) Teleology is a good word, with lots of legitimate applications. Your suggestion we use it to think of the goal of a particular program is helpful, I think, it helps us think of why we are doing something. In the "Seleneology" phase we are working towards a better understanding of the moon and its environment and the technology needed to live and work there. Your goal is a commerical lunar tourism industry. As I see it, not tourism as geriatrics sipping drinks, but adventure tourism, akin to mountaineering or polar treking, I think this as a workable goal, the biggest issue is what is the market and what cost will it support? Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

igorsboss · Nov 14, 2005

Many island tourists enjoy a nice, cool drink in the shade served to them by a native. How can you expect to build a tourist trade when you're missing the beach, the shade, the drink, and the natives? All you've got is an empty glass! <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

Swampcat · Nov 15, 2005

"How can you expect to build a tourist trade..." Hey, different strokes for different folks. Have a casino, some 1/6th g stage shows (such things as acrobatics and ballet come to mind) and some 1/6th g recreational activities and you might have something. Not to mention some spectacular views of Earth. And why does that glass have to be empty? <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

spacester · Nov 18, 2005

Replying to the post with the list, going thru the list to talk about the capabilities needed . . . 1.1 Lunar Ice and 1.2 Aitken Basin go together well. When VSE talks about global access, to me that means Aitken Basin is the default target for manned missions pending on-site robotic examination. From a commercial standpoint, I would argue that ice extraction is a big government / big business type activity, so there’s no need for us to worry about acquiring that capability. 1.3 Lunar Transient Phenomena are an exciting prospect for Science-by-the-Public. If we maintain constant surveillance of a dozen or so locations, we might discover something really cool. Are these phenomena likely to be observable from ground level? If they are just optical effects as seen from Earth then we would want to observe from lunar orbit, right? But if they are lunar rocks fluorescing, we would want folks on the ground, likewise if it’s out-gassing of some kind. Is it reasonable to mount surface missions in the early going to search for LTPs? My reaction is no; we should watch from orbit very carefully, and not look for them on the ground until we know more. 1.4 Farside Highland Crust / 1.5 Farside Basalt is a high priority target in my mind. The Apollo missions went to “interesting places” and so we ended up with a skewed impression of the distribution of minerals. We need a much more complete global sample survey, and certainly the farside needs to be a big part of that. I see this as a global mission for “an army of robots”, and I see commercial possibilities as well. I am not aware of any plans along these lines at NASA or elsewhere, but I expect it’s going on quietly, at least at some level. Pathfinder-sized rovers but with fuel cells, several of them could deploy from multiple hopper / lander modules and bring their samples to base stations, e.g. Aitken Basin could be the central collection point. Gather all the samples for return to Earth / ISS. <</safety_wrapper> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

spacester · Nov 18, 2005

The beach, the shade, the drinks and the natives . . . Adventure Tourism . . . Spectacular views . . . Compelling Reasons . . . Casino . . . 1/6 g recreation . . . You folks don’t want much, do you? <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Yet, with the fabulous Lunar Dome I envision, you can have all that and more! And for less than you think! Sooner than later! Hurry, act before midnight tonight and all this can be yours! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

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