Someone get Griffin away from the media!

[spacester]

To insinuate that those who see ISS as folly do not see our dead Astronauts as heroes is a very deep insult indeed. In my book it is much, much worse than any ad hominem ever written here.<br /><br />Those who see ISS as folly have been "voices in the wilderness" for quite some time now. Only now that we have a NASA Admin who is simultaneously technically competent, politcally astute and fundamentally honest, can we begin an honest debate on ISS. There are fundamental issues with the mission for ISS that need to be addressed.<br /><br />I fancy myself to be placed exactly between the so-called (and self-defined) "pro-ISS" and "Anti-ISS camps", but I must say that the "antis" have done a pretty remarkable job of staying level headed and rational on this emotional thread. I have to say that the "Pros" have not done as good a job at that. I must also say that was very much to my surprise, I'd of thought it would be the other way around.<br /><br />Having said all that, I am 100% behind the completion of ISS. Why? Because it advances Human Space Flight. Because it is under construction and when it is done it will be a damn fine science lab and it will find its place among the other space stations and prove to be a good thing after all. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[spacester]

But enough with the labels, enough with the warring factions. Let us rather gather into camps, into clans that form a tribe. If you are not at war with the clan on the other side of the ridge, you can go about your business of prospering, you can build your camp into a city.<br /><br />If the warring factions become a federation of clans, every tribe can spend their time turning their swords into plowshares. <br /><br />For example, you can turn the Moon-vs-Mars debate into solid background information for deciding which pieces of hardware will be used for both, and which will be specialized. You can agree that going to both places is a good thing and figure out how to cooperate, not just compete. <br /><br />You can support ISS even if you think it is folly. Yes, that's asking a lot. But you can agree to not tear down the words and works of others and just maybe you will be rewarded.<br /><br />You can be an ex-Mars First! person and go to your leaders and say "I want to support our efforts to conquer the moon." Mars folks are doing this to some extent already, because they see Griffin's leadership as a good thing. So you can support VSE and you can help Dr. Griffin move us all forward and then you can go to him and say, "hey Mike, how's about we move up the schedule on Mars by a decade or two?" and just maybe he'll say "Hey, I'm glad you asked. That was the plan all along. But I had to get the Moon solidified as the first target in order to make the whole political thing work. Let's go to Mars! Do you have a plan ready? You want a ride?"<br /><br />Just maybe if we learn how to turn our diversity into a strength we can all get what we want.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[spacester]

Just one more thing <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />If you like the idea of collaborating with other space enthusiasts to develop a comprehensive yet detailed plan for the future of human spaceflight, well a structure for doing just that has been developed and is just a few days (hours?) from becoming operational. <br /><br />If you want to have some fun and do it for a purpose, and you were just thinking, while reading the above post, "if only there was a way to do what he suggests . . . " then you owe it to yourself to help us out. Or at least come over and read what we're all about.<br /><br />The presentation of what ACCESS Space Foundation is about is <a href="">here; </a> it's a rather old-fashioned site, perhaps amateurish even, right now. <br /><br />But we've chipped away at the content and the organization of that section of the site, where we present what we're all about. The exciting news is that we've put together a Community Section that becomes operational in a day or two. It's powered by xoops, an open-source php package that is designed to build communities. It's cool stuff and perfect for what we're doing; very dynamic, and integrates forums with lots of other features. So it's taken a while to get up to speed on xoops and to design the exact strategy for snowballing this idea into an actual space program.<br /><br />So to be honest, lately it's been more "me" than "we". But it was a necessary phase. It's a rather complicated thing to organize space advocates into a semi-cohesive whole. After the terrific collaboration of the Mars Settlement Threads here, it was time for a singularly focused effort to design an organization capable of herding cats. So the job fell to me, and I am excited that very soon we will find out if people will step up to the plate and move us forward. There is plenty of work to be done, and we will begin developing a to-do list this week, so you can sign up for jobs and we can collectively get 'er done. My goal is to fad <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[barrykirk]

Bingo, Lampblack, you hit the nail on the head.

 

[shuttle_rtf]

>Shuttle_RTF said: "If that's something you agree with, or something you don't think is a big deal, then tell that to the familes of the 14 dead astronauts we've lost on the STS program. Tell it to the workers that have put their life work into this 'mistake' because of lot of this people working on that 'mistake' will get you to back to the Moon and Mars."<br /><br />I'm sorry -- this type of response is a thoroughly irrational, overly emotional mishmash that doesn't add anything useful to the conversation.<<br /><br />I find it nothing short of disgusting that you can dismiss that comment as irrational and mishmash...especially from a journalist of 20 years - self proclaimed when supporting the hoax Challenger script should remain in the public domain for reasons of "free speech".<br /><br />Maybe you should read the responses from the actual STS workers (in several places, not just on this thread) to this subject matter noted at the start of the thread to give yourself some basis.<br /><br />Emotional, damn right. If you've got a problem with people's emotions, then maybe you'd like to keep it to yourself and drop the patronism.<br /><br />You then claim: " Indeed, a frank admission now that the shuttle program is flawed will help to ensure that more astronauts don't die."<br /><br />But then say: "I find it disturbing that the conversation in these forums sometimes breaks down along very emotional "pro-shuttle" or "anti-shuttle" lines -- or "pro-ISS" or "anti-ISS."<br /><br />Ironic.<br /><br />I'll cut the rest of your post off at: "When we emotionally commit our allegiance to hardware systems." as you're responding to my post which focuses on the Astronaunts and STS workers, NOT the Hardware.<br /><br />So you've either seriously misassumed my stance, or lost focus - maybe through emotion, ironically - in your retort.<br /><br />I had expected better from you.

 

[shuttle_rtf]

Debating sure is better than being a cheerleader.

 

[lampblack]

You're not a seeker of truth, so much as a blind advocate. One expects better of journalists.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#0000ff"><strong>Just tell the truth and let the chips fall...</strong></font> </div>

 

[nacnud]

Shuttle_RTF in the past has said that when posting on here he takes of his journalist’s hat and posts his opinions. When writing stories for his site he lets quotes do the talking.<br /><br />You shouldn't confuse the two sides of his online personality, I think its generally very clear which side is talking and any one time.<br />

 

[lampblack]

"I find it nothing short of disgusting that you can dismiss that comment as irrational and mishmash...especially from a journalist of 20 years - self proclaimed when supporting the hoax Challenger script should remain in the public domain for reasons of 'free speech'."<br /><br />I would direct you to the above quote taken from Shuttle_RTF's recent diatribe in which he outlines (among other things) what a huge disappointment I am. I would suggest that he's the one blurring the boundaries between "working journalist" and "plain ol' forum participant."<br /><br />The latter is all I have ever claimed to be within the context of these forums.<br /><br />My essential point (which somehow became lost in the diatribe) stands.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#0000ff"><strong>Just tell the truth and let the chips fall...</strong></font> </div>

 

[franson_space]

Sounds like someone's getting all upset and has decided to try and character assination on Shttle RTF. How very sad of you Lampblack. Get over it.<br />He's very transparent and that's why people know what you don't know in the two posts inbetween yours. You however said you are outing yourself as a journlist, like it's some secret society and don't even say who you are.<br /><br />You really aren't helping yourself here at all.

 

[shuttle_man]

I totally agree.

 

[shuttle_rtf]

Lampblack, it certainly wasn't my intention to make it sound like a personal issue. I totally apologise for that, as I obviously did - reading back.<br /><br />I really do aim to keep my forum postings (of opinion) separate to my news writing...thankfully I'm not a op-ed columnist <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />But seriously, I do come across like an arrogant wanker a lot of the time. It's not intentional and it's only the passionate approach I hold towards all space related matters. I do respect everyone's view on here - regardless of if I disagree with it - and I'm sorry for coming across differently.

 

[lampblack]

<img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> The "outing" of myself as a journalist happened in a totally different thread. The context involved a nutcase conspiracy theorist (is that redundant?) who was (among other things) accusing Shuttle_RTF specifically and journalists generally of being NASA stooges. Or something. It may have involved the poster's belief that we're basing black helicopters out of newsrooms -- I don't exactly recall. But Shuttle_RTF and I were more or less on the same side of that issue -- except we disagreed over whether the nutcase poster's delusional ramblings should be allowed to stand.<br /><br />I believe, Ms. Franson, that you are defending your friend. That is a fine thing for a friend to do. And I hope you get to marry an astronaut someday. If I were single and if Eileen Collins was unattached, I know I would at least *fantasize* a time or two about showing up on her doorstep in Houston with flowers in hand.<br /><br />Everybody who takes the time to visit these forums is in love -- one way or another -- with the idea of space exploration. That's the one thing we all agree on -- and the real reason that we're here. To whatever extent we get sidetracked by things that are hurtful or even remotely distracting, it distracts from the thing that we all love.<br /><br />So I, for one, would be willing to extend and/or accept whatever apologies might be appropriate -- and propose that we hit the reset button.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#0000ff"><strong>Just tell the truth and let the chips fall...</strong></font> </div>

 

[lampblack]

Well... if you come across sometimes like an arrogant wanker, then I come across every now and then like a pompous ass. We'll get along fine.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#0000ff"><strong>Just tell the truth and let the chips fall...</strong></font> </div>

 

[franson_space]

"And I hope you get to marry an astronaut someday. If I were single and if Eileen Collins was unattached, I know I would at least *fantasize* a time or two about showing up on her doorstep in Houston with flowers in hand. "<br /><br />Platnium credit card in hand with some bank records would be more appropiate with me <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[giofx]

NASA Chief Clarifies Comments on Shuttle, Space Station<br /><br />CAPE CANAVERAL - Saying he "didn't handle the situation well," NASA Administrator Mike Griffin sent out an agencywide e-mail Monday to clarify controversial comments on the space shuttle and International Space Station programs.<br /><br />"As I have often said publicly, the shuttle is the most amazing machine humans have ever built, and it has been the recipient of the most brilliant engineering that America can provide. The station is a more difficult engineering project, by far, than was Apollo," Griffin said.<br /><br />His intention was not "to criticize or diminish the efforts of those who have devoted their lives -- and in some cases given their lives -- to the space program," he said.<br /><br />"I do hope you know that I would never speak of our efforts, past or present, in a way intended to denigrate the efforts of the engineers, technicians, managers, scientists and administrative personnel who 'make it happen' at NASA and at our contractors."<br /><br />The e-mail, a copy of which was obtained by FLORIDA TODAY, follows a meeting Griffin had a week ago today with the editorial board of USA Today.<br /><br />Asked then whether the shuttle had been a mistake, Griffin said, "My opinion is that it was. . . . It was a design which was extremely aggressive and just barely possible."<br /><br />Asked whether the space station had been a mistake, he said, "Had the decision been mine, we would not have built the space station we're building in the orbit we're building it in."<br /><br />In his e-mail, Griffin said he realized the comments "have left some hurt feelings behind."<br /><br />Griffin acknowledged that he believes "we have been restricted to low-Earth orbit for far too long and that the proper focus of our nation's space program should be the exploration of the solar system."<br /><br />But he added, "We must complete the station and the only tool with which we can accomplish that is the shuttle."<br /><br />

 

[franson_space]

Yes, I think that was a good move.