Space explorers mourn the loss of Titan submersible's 5 crewmates

[Admin]

The exploration community is still reeling from the announcement that the submersible Titan broke apart, resulting in the death of its five passengers.

Space explorers mourn the loss of Titan submersible's 5 crewmates : Read more

 

[ARTGLICK]

It seems obscene that these five idle rich who had the time and money to indulge themselves in such a fashion are mourned so greatly, yet hundreds of desperate migrants seeking a better life perish and there is barely a mention.

What is even more unforgivable is all the time, money and effort expended to rescue these five while the hundreds of indigent are left to flounder.

Shame on the human race for such twisted priorities.

 

[Unclear Engineer]

I am seeing that sentiment posted in many places on the Internet, like it is some sort of political campaign.

While I agree that it is a shame that more was not done for the illegal migrants whose boat sank while they were trying to reach Italy, I think you are missing some important points about the rescue efforts involved in the two tragedies.

First, there is not one over-arching world government that responds to all such emergencies - two different groups of governments were involved in these 2 separate tragic events. Don't blame the U.S., Canada and Spain for what happened between Greece, Italy and Turkey.

In the case of the illegal migrants, it is important to realize that they were trying to reach a country that does not want them , using illegal means, including a ship that was not intended for such crowding with human cargo, which was not operating legally, either. That puts any potential rescuing government in the no-win situation of either letting them drown in their attempt or rescuing them and, in so doing, ending up with the responsibility of caring for them in the country that is trying to avoid having to care for them. In the case of the migrants in the Mediterranean, the Greek boat that could have done more says that the migrants' boat was heading for Italy and was making way in that direction before it overturned. Some data disputes that. But, the issue is highly politicized and I am not sure what exactly to believe. I suspect that Greece, which has had its own national bankruptcy problem, was hoping to not get involved with this particular group because it was headed for Italy.

Anyway, it is important to remember that this immigration endeavor was based on a lot of criminal behaviors that take advantage of people who want a better life in Europe, even to the point of encouraging them to go on voyages that have far more risk than admitted by the criminals who arrange them. The criminals who are arranging these ships are the truly evil players in these tragedies. They are making big profits doing that - they are not charities. And, there are many such tragedies, so it is most important to get to the root causes, rather than blame governments for not rescuing everybody whose illegal behaviors cause them to need rescue.

Regarding the money spent on the attempt to rescue the submersible's crew, I do agree that it was also the fault of the company that arranged the dive, and that they also seem to have underplayed the risk to their clients. In that case, the company should be sued for the costs of the operations by the U.S., Canada, Spain, and other governments. That was not an expedition that was set up to benefit science or humanity in general, it was just recreation for a few very wealthy people. There is a company that has assets that can be legally reached.

But, the criminals who lure migrants into dangerous illegal entry attempts are far more numerous, far more deadly, and cannot be made to pay the costs for the government responses to the events they cause . Even if the U.S., Canada and Spain did not spend money on the submersible incident, there are going to be illegal immigrants drowning in the waters from the Mediterranean Sea out to the Canary Islands in the Atlantic. That area has been the scene of human conflicts for longer than history has been recorded.

 

[charalmi]

The exploration community is still reeling from the announcement that the submersible Titan broke apart, resulting in the death of its five passengers.

Space explorers mourn the loss of Titan submersible's 5 crewmates : Read more

I don't know who is crazier. The one who gets on that insecure device or those who allow it to exist. They have already been denounced by employees of the firm. They silenced him by paying him, while they were on trial. These deaths were already announced. If it can be prevented, it is not an accident.

 

[charalmi]

It seems obscene that these five idle rich who had the time and money to indulge themselves in such a fashion are mourned so greatly, yet hundreds of desperate migrants seeking a better life perish and there is barely a mention.

What is even more unforgivable is all the time, money and effort expended to rescue these five while the hundreds of indigent are left to flounder.

Shame on the human race for such twisted priorities.

I don't know who is crazier. The one who gets on that insecure device or those who allow it to exist. They have already been denounced by employees of the firm. They silenced him by paying him, while they were on trial. These deaths were already announced. If it can be prevented, it is not an accident.

 

[ARTGLICK]

I am seeing that sentiment posted in many places on the Internet, like it is some sort of political campaign.

While I agree that it is a shame that more was not done for the illegal migrants whose boat sank while they were trying to reach Italy, I think you are missing some important points about the rescue efforts involved in the two tragedies.

First, there is not one over-arching world government that responds to all such emergencies - two different groups of governments were involved in these 2 separate tragic events. Don't blame the U.S., Canada and Spain for what happened between Greece, Italy and Turkey.

In the case of the illegal migrants, it is important to realize that they were trying to reach a country that does not want them , using illegal means, including a ship that was not intended for such crowding with human cargo, which was not operating legally, either. That puts any potential rescuing government in the no-win situation of either letting them drown in their attempt or rescuing them and, in so doing, ending up with the responsibility of caring for them in the country that is trying to avoid having to care for them. In the case of the migrants in the Mediterranean, the Greek boat that could have done more says that the migrants' boat was heading for Italy and was making way in that direction before it overturned. Some data disputes that. But, the issue is highly politicized and I am not sure what exactly to believe. I suspect that Greece, which has had its own national bankruptcy problem, was hoping to not get involved with this particular group because it was headed for Italy.

Anyway, it is important to remember that this immigration endeavor was based on a lot of criminal behaviors that take advantage of people who want a better life in Europe, even to the point of encouraging them to go on voyages that have far more risk than admitted by the criminals who arrange them. The criminals who are arranging these ships are the truly evil players in these tragedies. They are making big profits doing that - they are not charities. And, there are many such tragedies, so it is most important to get to the root causes, rather than blame governments for not rescuing everybody whose illegal behaviors cause them to need rescue.

Regarding the money spent on the attempt to rescue the submersible's crew, I do agree that it was also the fault of the company that arranged the dive, and that they also seem to have underplayed the risk to their clients. In that case, the company should be sued for the costs of the operations by the U.S., Canada, Spain, and other governments. That was not an expedition that was set up to benefit science or humanity in general, it was just recreation for a few very wealthy people. There is a company that has assets that can be legally reached.

But, the criminals who lure migrants into dangerous illegal entry attempts are far more numerous, far more deadly, and cannot be made to pay the costs for the government responses to the events they cause . Even if the U.S., Canada and Spain did not spend money on the submersible incident, there are going to be illegal immigrants drowning in the waters from the Mediterranean Sea out to the Canary Islands in the Atlantic. That area has been the scene of human conflicts for longer than history has been recorded.

Sounds like a serious case of victim blaming in my opinion. And I think you missed my point completely, which was that the cavorting of a handful of idle rich captivates our society while the horrible loss of hundreds of innocents goes largely ignored.

 

[Unclear Engineer]

Well, since you blamed "humanity" in general, it seems you are blaming me, the other readers here, which includes yourself, and even the people you call the victims. What I am saying is that is not useful. You need to understand the situations in order to do anything to make it better.

And, I think you are misstating the facts, especially the interest and media coverage. Both events were covered in the local/national media here around Washington, DC in the U.S. The one in the Atlantic (the sub) was closer to here, and involved U.S. assets for the rescue, a U.S. company, and had substantial aspects of suspense in its story line. The other was much farther away, involved other nations but not the U.S., and was not an unusual story in that there are many such illegal voyages in many parts of the world on a daily basis, a large fraction of which go wrong and get some sort of "rescue" by other governments. That story was covered here as soon as the ship overturned, and there was continuing coverage as the death count increased. There was coverage of the finger-pointing, especially at Greece.

Closer to my home In the U.S., most of those type of events involve people trying to get out of Haiti, and the U.S. Coast Guard intercepts them and sends them back to Haiti. That makes a bit of news, and any tragedies that occur make more news, here. From what I read, the ship in the Mediterranean that overturned was not initially asking for help, probably because they did not want to be forced to return to Turkey. Once the ship overturned, the rescue efforts occurred and the media covered the event.

My concern with your post is that you blame "humanity" for the problem, without any suggestion for a solution. Humans are not all the same in the way we think or the way we act. We need to focus on the bad actors, not spread the blame to everybody and do nothing but criticize everybody. The real bad actors are those who make the original homes of refugees intolerable. But, how do we, from our better-off, outside vantage points, make things better in those places? It is not so easy. Money, and even military action have often failed to deal with the corruptions in governments, and the gangs, and the widespread animosities that involve tribal histories, religious cultures, etc. The U.S. cannot be the world's policeman. Neither can the United Nations.

For example, Haiti is currently in such a bad situation that the remains of their government are begging the U.S. or the U.N. to go in and use military might to restore order. Gangs are openly in control, have killed the President, and have kidnapped even the foreign charity workers and held them for huge ransoms. Both the U.N. and the U.S. have previously sent peace keepers to Haiti, but both failed to make a lasting difference, and ended up being blamed instead of thanked. Now, neither is willing to repeat the process, and Haiti is left on its own.

Letting everybody in Haiti move to the U.S. would not help settle the issues in Haiti, but would import many of the bad actors into the U.S., where we already have serious crime and drug problems among the people already here.

So, what is your solution to that? If you "blame" somebody, I suggest that you blame the people who are making Haiti a living hell, not the people like me and you who are not there and seem to have no power to fix that situation.