Space Law...

[inventorwannabe]

Is it OK by everyone if I went up and started to excavate an asteroid? What laws would I break in that case? <br /><br />Brgds / InventorWannabe

 

[mrmorris]

I give you my personal blessing. Head on out there and start mining posthaste.

 

[steve70]

I doubt any law currently exists for this situation, although I believe maritime law would rule in space.

 

[inventorwannabe]

Well, I found that the FAA has released regulations yesterday for manned spaceflights... So that will be some lawbreaking to start with!<br /><br />Of course it was colored by the present industries wishes to keep the barr past the technology levels that they have passed. Of course to keep newcomers away from the scene. People are so foreseeable. Freedom seems to be a hoax, a dream to keep people calm and to let them believe that they can do a difference!<br /><br />Brgds / InventorWannabe

 

[mrmorris]

There is an international agreement -- don't remember who signed it except the US and Russia -- that countries cannot claim national ownership of extra-terrestrial property. The agreement supposedly didn't cover private entities, which is the claim some dude who's selling 'moon plots' uses to claim his scheme is legal. He doesn't really touch on how he can 'own' property for which he's never actually done anything to 'deserve' ownership beyond stating that it's his.<br /><br />FAA regulations only pertain if you launch in the U.S.<br /><br />I wasn't kidding (much) when I said you had my permission. My permission is just as valid in this instance as a joint Presidential/Congressional decree. There is no law in space where there is no ability to enforce. Head down to Brazil -- launch your rocket -- grab a handy asteroid and start mining. If you've solved all of the engineering challenges -- the legal ones are non-existent at this time.

 

[bpfeifer]

There are two international agreements that touch on this. If you look up "Outer Space Treaty" and "Moon Treaty" in your favorite search engine, you will come up with the actual text. Both were negotiated via the UN and were strongly backed by Non-aligned nations during the Cold War. A large part of their motivation was that they didn’t have any space capabilities and many of them had come up on the short end of European colonization in previous decades/centuries. They didn’t want to get stuck in that same position as the US and USSR took control of the rest of the solar system.<br /><br />The Outer Space Treaty, which I think is from 1967, says that no nation may claim sovereignty over any celestial body, and that all resources beyond the earth will be held for the benefit of all mankind. The US is a signatory of that treaty.<br /><br />The Moon Treaty goes into more detail that no individual may claim ownership of any part of a celestial body. It also says that an international regime will be set up to regulate the use of outer space resources as their use becomes more feasible, and again this is done for the benefit of all mankind. The US did NOT sign this treaty.<br /><br />Recently President Bush released an updated National Space Policy. This is where things start to get interesting. Among the gems buried in the document, was a statement that the US would not permit the establishment of any international regime that placed any limits on the US access to and use of outer space. I believe that this was intended to refute the Moon treaty in line with the commercialization of space as promoted by Newt Gingrich and the New Right back in the late 60’s and 70’s.<br /><br />Others have already mentioned applicable FAA regulations, but I think the interesting story here is international treaties. <br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Brian J. Pfeifer http://sabletower.wordpress.com<br /> The Dogsoldier Codex http://www.lulu.com/sabletower<br /> </div>

 

[spacester]

My understanding is that there are absolutely no legal barriers to your enterprise. <br /><br />The Outer Space Treaty is on shaky grounds in several ways, and in any case does not talk about private entities doing commercial business IIRC.<br /><br />The Moon Treaty is very much a hippy-dippy silly document in terms of legality. IMO there are some principles in there to be considered, so don't ignore it entirely but don't let it get in your way.<br /><br />The recent changes from the White House have nothing to do with the subject at hand and everything to do with a neocon approach to space flight. I doubt that anyone in that building has ever heard of the moon treaty. Nuff said?<br /><br />There are no laws to stop you and there are gaggles of lawyers just waiting for guys like you to do things so they can be a part of the development of actual space law.<br /><br />Let the merchants and speculators lead the way and let the lawyers follow. By all means, do NOT wait for the lawyers to get everything figured out first, cuz it won't happen.<br /><br />Oh, and the FAA has been doing great things for private space flight. Do not get mad at them until you inform yourself. Good advice in general: those who hate city hall to start with tend to not get their projects approved by the town council. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[bpfeifer]

"neocon," what's neocon. I'm not familiar with the term. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Brian J. Pfeifer http://sabletower.wordpress.com<br /> The Dogsoldier Codex http://www.lulu.com/sabletower<br /> </div>

 

[spacester]

"what's neocon. I'm not familiar with the term"<br /><br />Um, seriously? You're yanking my chain, right? Do you vote? Are you a US citizen?<br /><br />Google is your friend, and so is wikipedia.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[j05h]

<i>>> "what's neocon. I'm not familiar with the term"<br /> /> Um, seriously? You're yanking my chain, right? Do you vote? Are you a US citizen? </i><br /><br />LOL! <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> You guys are funny.<br /><br />There is no specific law preventing you from flying to and claiming an asteroid as your own. No spacefaring nation signed the Moon Treaty, it's a dead letter. The OST is less onerous and ignorable as needed. Law is built on precedent set from action, not theory. People can argue from now till nova about it, or press the case and open the frontier. <br /><br />So far, we can assume that humans-in-space will generally follow sea law. We also know that claiming ownership without possesion is not enough for current courts. This is good, it's a starting point: you can't randomly claim things, possesion is still 9/10ths. The next thing to answer is whether your vehicle with active transponder is enough to stake a claim (at least enough for investors), or do you need boots on the regolith to claim?<br /><br />Let me add a few things. I would like to see a frontier authority created that will recognize claims and register/recognize space claims. This could happen now and create a landrush in the sky. Or, we can do it one step at a time, location by location. The best metaphor for settling is the Ports Authority and old colony-companies like Hudson Bay Co, Massachusetts Bay Co, Dutch East India Co, etc. This is, IMHO, the singular best way to do any kind of exploration-development. <br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[bpfeifer]

"Let me add a few things. I would like to see a frontier authority created that will recognize claims and register/recognize space claims. "<br /><br />I agree that this is exactly what we need. If businesses are certain of preserving their ownership of real estate, then they will stake claims. The only trouble is who will set up this authority? If it's an international body like the UN, it'll take forever to set up and is unlikely to really fulfill commercial needs. If the US does it unilaterally, then it is likely to cause some serious international hurt felings and competition. I'm simply not sure where and how it should be executed. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Brian J. Pfeifer http://sabletower.wordpress.com<br /> The Dogsoldier Codex http://www.lulu.com/sabletower<br /> </div>

 

[webtaz99]

"Possession is 9/10ths of the law." <br /><br />I've heard this all my life, and I'm sure it will doubly true in space. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[mrmorris]

<font color="yellow">"Possession is 9/10ths of the law." </font><br /><br /><font color="orange">"I've heard this all my life, and I'm sure it will doubly true in space."</font><br /><br />Call it an order of magnitude more true in space given the difficulty in *getting* to the object in question. If your neighbor steals your lawnmower -- you *might* take them to small claims court in order to prove it's yours and retrieve it. If your neighbor steals your lawnmower and then moves to Tibet... you're going to make a trip to Home Depot and buy a new lawnmower (you never liked that flipping mower anyway).<br /><br />Disputing ownership of resources in space isn't going to happen until it's *much* *much* **MUCH** easier to get to them.

 

[spacester]

>>"Let me add a few things. I would like to see a frontier authority created that will recognize claims and register/recognize space claims. "<br /><br /> />I agree that this is exactly what we need. If businesses are certain of preserving their ownership of real estate, then they will stake claims. The only trouble is who will set up this authority? If it's an international body like the UN, it'll take forever to set up and is unlikely to really fulfill commercial needs. If the US does it unilaterally, then it is likely to cause some serious international hurt felings and competition. I'm simply not sure where and how it should be executed.<br /><br />Good question. mrmorris is of course quite correct as well so the first conclusion I make is to quit worrying about it and "just go do it". Go do things and let the lawyers follow.<br /><br />I've made that point for years and typically follow with my argument as to why private property rights aren't nearly as important as everyone seems to think. When first approaching the topic, private property rights seem so obvious, but I hold that they hardly matter. I'll save that argument for another post.<br /><br />Assuming that such an organization will in fact be needed, who better to form that org than the people doing things? Self-regulation is a great way to avoid government regulation.<br /><br />In fact, of all things I would look to the moon treaty, among other stuff, with an eye to developing an operating ethic, a protocol for interactions, maybe even a controlling authority.<br /><br />One of the clauses I've come up with is a formal code of hospitality. Having multiple private operations going on can be synergistic only if the level of cooperation is high. Certainly emergencies call for appropriate assistance. <br /><br />(BTW I apologize for my snarkiness earlier, too much political discussion I guess.) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[ldyaidan]

Lots of good point here. I also say "Go for it" What are they going to do? Come kick you off? I say mine it, make your money, then charge others for rides on your transportation system. Find a way to get us there and back, and you will have the world at your door, waiting for their chance.<br /><br />Rae

 

[j05h]

Go for it! That is the right attitude!<br /><br />The ideal registrar of claims is an organization that can claim neutrality and has practical knowledge about space/working the frontier. Obviously, this is forward-looking. I wouldn't trust the UN with this task for many reasons. NORAD might be a good choice for govt-based group, but I'm thinking more along the lines of ICANN - which grew from the ground up. It could be a professional organization or guild, it could double as traffic-control or just handle claims. It shouldn't be created until after it is needed, but not so far after that we have rogue Texans with a 20mm Bushmaster squatting on Shackleton Crater growling "This polar region ain't big enough for the rest of you." while NASA tries to build it's outpost. If possible, we want to avoid land-rushes - there is plenty out there for everyone.<br /><br />Dibs on Phobos!<br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[bpfeifer]

I agree that "go for it!" is the right attitude, but when it's your investment on the line, you want some guarantee that you'll be able to keep it.<br /><br />Assume you design some kind of NEO mining operation. Chances are it’ll be automated because of the high costs and risks associated with human operations. You may need a few astronauts to set it up, but afterwards, no one remains on site. Your equipment remains on the asteroid digging, refining, and chucking the metals back toward earth.<br /><br />No bank will loan money to a mine on Earth until it proves that the desired minerals are present and extractable. Thus by the time you start your asteroid mining operation, it will not be a secret. Will your operation still be profitable if others attempt to exploit the same asteroid as you? What if there is accidental destruction of your equipment by another party trying to mine the same asteroid? What if your capsule full of refined ore goes off course and lands in Siberia instead of your landing zone in Texas? What if it drops on NY City?<br /><br />By all means go for it. Build the hardware as soon as you can, but while you’re at it, partner with an experienced businessman, and an experienced lawyer. No major investor will part with his hard earned cash without a reasonable expectation of a return. The larger the investment, the more important this becomes, and no one can doubt that space ventures are very expensive. Prove that the courts won’t take the fruits of your labor, and you’ll have a much easier time convincing investors to jump on board.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Brian J. Pfeifer http://sabletower.wordpress.com<br /> The Dogsoldier Codex http://www.lulu.com/sabletower<br /> </div>

 

[j05h]

<i>> I agree that "go for it!" is the right attitude, but when it's your investment on the line, you want some guarantee that you'll be able to keep it. </i><br /><br />If (big if) you can make the investment case and fly, no one in the next decade or so is going to be able to claim-jump your miner. Partly, this is distance, partly you can prepare for an opponents arrival in the years between their launch and arrival at your NEO.<br /><br />I'm mostly interested in volatile mining (water, etc) not metals. I don't think you'll be sending any raw resources back to Earth, they will be used in space or processed into product for Earth export. For metals, you are better off building a refinery and producing product than landing ingots on Earth - likely markets include platinum screens for fuel cells, expensive "space water" for domestic consumption and of course information. Crashes and other mishaps are already handled via existing, settled case law. <br /><br />US courts aren't going to stop a (non-dangerous) mining operation. You might have to worry about other jurisdictions. Like I said above, the lawyers will follow the action, not vice-versa. Go, mine, claim-stake, get famous. <br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[inventorwannabe]

Thank You all for Your answers and thoughts about this! I have been googling around for documents about the matter and came to the same conclusion as You have presented. There is no one that could stop You if You decided to take the step (more than the financial part of course)! The revenues would be quite staggering to put it mildly. <br /><br />I would take the metals as well, mostly to use in space for construction - some unusable stuff as diamonds etc. would be sent back to the Earth. The water and other volatiles should of course stay in space for use at the plant and as a depot for others. Like a gas station if anyone is planning to refuel... I havent figured out though if it is economical to brake for refueling or if you have to accelerate the station to syncronous orbit with the customer and fly side by side to get it to work. There are other solutions though where You could give the customers a push as a thanks for using my refueling facilities... A Maglev sort of thing, "Here You have a few km/s - Have a nice journey". There is quite a lot of issues to sort out but on the good side - there is also a lot of ideas around!<br /><br />In a longer run when the asteroid looks more like a cheese I would probably turn it into a space station. It would be excavated with this in mind - the shafts is to be sealed, air tighted and made to accomodate people who will enjoy 0.4G-0.5G due to that the remnants is to be rotated to achieve it. I might even be feasible to relocate the remnants when the mass has decreased (Boris61 had a question about this in another thread). Just keep it steady between the Earth and the Moon and there will be alot of rooms hired out to different companies who want's to be present. <br /><br />Well, a problem I might see with all this is that I'm a EU citizen. How will the US react to this? It might be easier if I first moved to the US, got a citizenship and then went on. I have sent a question to the EU gov. about the matter but havn't got any ans

 

[mrmorris]

<font color="yellow">"...unusable stuff as diamonds etc. would be sent back to the Earth..."</font><br /><br />A. Diamonds take incredible heat and pressure over a long period of time to form. This isn't something I'd be expecting to find on an asteroid. It's *possible*, but not something to plan on.<br /><br />B. Diamonds are mined by hand on Earth. Automated mining equipment wouldn't recognize them even if they <b>are</b> there.<br /><br />C. Diamonds are *very* useful in industrial processes -- generally smaller pieces and dust used for grinding, etc. This would be true in orbital or lunar industry as well.<br /><br />D. Unless you find the twin of the Hope Diamond -- sending diamonds back to Earth wouldn't be profitable. Diamonds are worth a whole lot less on the hoof than DeBeers would like you to think. If you <b>were</b> to find them, best to crush them up and use in C above.<br /><br />E. Variants of C&D go for pretty much any mining products you might find. Without a drop in costs of two or more likely three orders of magnitude (i.e. 1% to .01% of current costs) -- you will not find any raw materials worth shipping to Earth's surface. The only *possible* physical objects worth bringing back to Earth's surface would be manufactured items that are impossible to make in a gravity field (perfect crystals, new alloys, pharmaceuticals, etc.)

 

[inventorwannabe]

Yes, you are quite right mrmorris! Thanks. Everything is probably of most value on site. <br /><br />Brgds / InventorWannabe

 

[webtaz99]

I don't know the name of the company (and they might well be out of biz by now), but some group was actually planning on landing a small probe on a near-Earth asteroid in order to "claim" it for later mining. Their goal was to push forward "space law"and get a ruling on property rights before launching actual mining hardware. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[oscar1]

A more interesting question would be "which country on Earth feels it can tax you on the profit you make?". In many countries it is customary to tax you on account of residence if you stay in a certain country for 180 days plus 1, but if you are busy 'up there' most of the year, yet are not within the borders of any competitor taxwise, [tax]laws will likely have to be rewritten via jurisprudence. What I mean to say is "the first obstable you will encounter when you are successfully conducting business in space, will be some taxman!"

 

[j05h]

<i>> I don't know the name of the company (and they might well be out of biz by now), but some group was actually planning on landing a small probe on a near-Earth asteroid in order to "claim" it for later mining. Their goal was to push forward "space law"and get a ruling on property rights before launching actual mining hardware.</i><br /><br />That would be SpaceDev and the NEAP probe. They seem to have shelved it, having been distracted by that whole "X Prize" thing...<br /><br />I'd really like to see someone do this. If not, maybe Postcards To Space will be in position to do the same in a few years. <br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[mdodson]

This link talks about a guy claiming to operate asteroid Eros as a parking area, and wanting to charge NASA for NEAR. (laughing) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/433_Eros