Space Law...

[j05h]

<i>> If the law states that no individual or corporation can own anything in space, effectively that socializes all of the universe. ... It's simply not enforceable. ... That's going to be overturned forthrightly.</i><br /><br />Law evolves with circumstances. Once people actually push property boundaries the laws will change. Spectrum allocation is a type of property, it is always changing as new needs and tech arise. For the OST to really be a dead letter, there will need to be people (or private probes?) staking actual places and orbits. I don't think the OST is going to be openly overturned, but it will simply pass into irrelevance. Can it stifle the investment environment? Possibly but unlikely. <br /><br />The guy claiming parking charges on Eros is not in possesion of the object. Without that critical control, he has no real claim. Does a transponder count? Or do you need boots-on-regolith? Can you own an orbit? How much of a difference does a person/base versus transponders count? <br /><br />The legal environment we should be striving for encourages development in diverse venues. <br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[bpfeifer]

My point is that the Moon Treaty and the Outer Space Treaty are both international treaties. They are not laws. They may restrict what laws any nation can write about space property laws, but as of today, there are no laws covering the topic, at least in the US. The Republicans have a vested interest in promoting space commerce, and that means actively working to undermine or remove these treaties.<br /><br />Doing things in space is very expensive. No one in their right mind will drop the kind of investment needed to claim ownership of any space real estate without a guarantee that they can keep it. This means the OST must be removed as a barrier, and laws enacted to protect off-planet property rights. <br /><br />This is where Bigelow shows his brilliance. He is building real estate that is already covered by existing laws and treaties. Because he builds a station and puts it into orbit he is the owner, and can rent its use to anyone he chooses. It’s not asteroid mining, but it is a new space business, and a step in the right direction, no matter where the more complicated legal issues are heading.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Brian J. Pfeifer http://sabletower.wordpress.com<br /> The Dogsoldier Codex http://www.lulu.com/sabletower<br /> </div>

 

[spacester]

OK steve I guess that's my cue to try to explain my statement that property rights - that is to say land ownership rights - are not as important as they might seem. I hope you can demonstrate an ability to discuss these ideas. Note that I freely admit that yours is the mainstream and logical and obvious position. Note that I agree with your post and that I am not advocating against private property rights in any way. I ask you to consider my statements and logic carefully and not reject it just for being new to your thinking.<br /><br />Not a lot of people think about space law, but those that do quickly come to the conclusion that private property rights are a necessary step to space development. Certainly it would be a big step forward to have such a legal framework in place. But let us focus here on the very early years, while the first business plans are executed and as the results come in.<br /><br />What exactly are we talking about here in terms of the legal framework required, the tangible benefits to owners and investors, and the opportunities thus opened?<br /><br />Suppose someone gave me $2B tax free, and some years later I find myself encamped on the Lunar surface at a mining / tourist operation near the equator. Suppose I hate lawyers (no stretch there) and so I never really got around to worrying too much about my private property rights in terms of having new legalities to protect my interests. I'm simply figuring we'll work it out as we go and it will be fine.<br /><br />An absurd plan and I am a fool you say. OK, fine, but why exactly?<br /><br />There is nothing in the way of me going about my mining business. My physical presence gives me the space-age equivalent of squatters rights, and thus the mineral rights, both surface and beneath, of all the territory I manage to access. Establishing mineral rights does not require establishing a system of property rights.<br /><br />There is nothing in the way of me going about my tourism business. My visitors are pr <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[inventorwannabe]

My feeling is that everyone is on the right track, the one that leads to private property rights in space. The small differences in view is not an issue. There are others (sorry, no references here bqs I have forgotten them) that had the idea that as long as You can prove that you have a business going on in some area it is yours to exploit. This doesn't mean that you have it forever, you can only claim it as long you can show that the plant is active. When you are ready, please put it in a nice shape and anyone with new ideas of how to exploit it is mostly welcome! You could also sell it to the highest bidder who thinks he can take home his investment or any other deal you can think of...<br />The interessting part of this is not the procedures, it is to get private investors up in the sky, fast , as long as they are productivly using their claims - let it be theirs!<br />The big obstacle may be trade unions on the Earth, how will their power restrain the usage of space? It might be the biggest obstacle against human prosperity out of space resources... The best might be that new unions are borne that knows about what environment their members are dealing with and recognizes the risks. If you are not willing to take the risk, stay home!<br /><br />Brgds / InventorWannabe<br /><br />Sorry, forgot - A HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL OF US!!! I have less than 2h before doing my duty of sending up my rockets against the blue skies (cloudy tonight though)!<br /><br /><br />Let 2007 be the year when all of this gets a solution!

 

[bpfeifer]

spacester,<br /><br />There's no major flaws in your logic, but there is in your basic asumption. <br /><br />You are correct that your little tourist operation on the Moon's equator neeed not bee overy concerned with property rights. The probleem is that this is not where space based industries and property right are likely to first be tested. <br /><br />Due to the expense of manned flight, we are unlikely to see a bunch of squatters sitting on claims. Instead, businesses will want to send automated prospectors te search the Moon, asteroids, or whatever for that mineral, or water, or H3 that is valuable enough to mine. That's when they'll want to stake their claim. Before they ever send a human, or even just a robotic miner. Once their prospector finds what they are looking for, they will apply to banks for the loans they need to extract it. At that point, it will be very hard to kep the locationof their intended mine secret. <br /><br />Do you really want to be in a situation where space businesses must keep the location of their oppereations secret in order to maintain sole access to the resource they invested in locating?<br /><br />That's why we need to set up an international claims office for space real estate. Set it up now. Figure out how it works, and then let the market do its magic. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Brian J. Pfeifer http://sabletower.wordpress.com<br /> The Dogsoldier Codex http://www.lulu.com/sabletower<br /> </div>

 

[spacester]

bpfeifer,<br /><br />Actually we appear to be in complete agreement, and the extent to which you question my basic assumption appears to be that I didn't explain myself well.<br /><br />All I'm really talking about here is the distinction between a "Land Claim" system and a "Real Estate" system. The first is easily implemented, as shown earlier in the thread. The second one is not needed and would be expensive to implement.<br /><br />Having mobile robotic devices and/or humans on site would give one the right to file a claim. No secrecy required (or likely possible) at any time. If they picked the right spot, they will determine they are sitting on an Ore Body. Referring to the link, the board of directors simply needs to not worry about owning the land under the operations.<br /><br />Setting up property rights in terms of establishing a Real Estate market is not needed in the early years of Lunar development. It would be a bonus and might even get in the way of progress if done prematurely.<br /><br />A mineral rights claim system and a squatter's rights code of law, along with cooperative agreements between space operators, are all that is really needed to get us to the point where the Real Estate system even begins to be needed. <br /><br />You only need a Real Estate system when it's time to sell developed property, and that comes after the phase where you tame the wilderness.<br /><br />A Claims system cannot be created soon enough - Google ought to be all over this. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[lysol]

Personally I think it should be colonial rule. You want to claim the moon, then you best make it so the old regimes of Earth wont hold you back.<br /><br />And if i had the means to access the resources in space when know one else does. Thats a vaccum of power. Space at the moment is the one place that the old govermental regimes have no reach. <br /><br />And I really wouldnt be to eager to gladly hand over control of that over to them. In one respect I support the Space policy Bush pushed basically flipping the bird off at the other nations about extra planetary claims.<br /><br />And there is a reason for that. He3 in the regolith of the moon. Its a prim source fuel for Fusion. USA and China isnt going to the moon to look at the pretty rocks, its to consolidate control over the next major fuel source for the planet.

 

[quantump7]

Sadly, this is true.<br /><br />You can't really trust any government to have the best interest of ALL of humanity in mind, especially when it comes to space. Too much nationalism and greed. <br /><br />Although, I cannot disagree enough with the idea that it should be colonial rule. We really should leave the petty colonialism and "It's miiiiiiiiine!!" mentality here on Earth.