SpaceX Falcon 9 Flight 1 Launch, June 4, 2010

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SpacexULA

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Re: Upcoming SpaceX Falcon 9 Flight 1 Launch

job1207":3mgldsru said:
This isn't of any consequence. I am not sure why the concern. They said that they were testing the flight termination system and waiting for Air Force clearance on their March 14 statement, and noted a no earlier than ......

SpaceXULA, that is an interesting name.

I had the name Nuaetius for the longest time, changed over to this around a year ago.

What can I say, I am a fan of Commercial launch ;)

As you said the FTS delay is not that big of deal, it can happen to anyone, but especially when the contractor has to "learn" a new rocket.

I just hope the delays in Falcon 9 Maiden aren't pushing COTS 1,2,3 back too far. Wonder how much the delay of the maiden delays the follow ons.
 
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mj1

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Re: Upcoming SpaceX Falcon 9 Flight 1 Launch

SpacexULA":11km8gmm said:
job1207":11km8gmm said:
This isn't of any consequence. I am not sure why the concern. They said that they were testing the flight termination system and waiting for Air Force clearance on their March 14 statement, and noted a no earlier than ......

SpaceXULA, that is an interesting name.

I had the name Nuaetius for the longest time, changed over to this around a year ago.

What can I say, I am a fan of Commercial launch ;)

As you said the FTS delay is not that big of deal, it can happen to anyone, but especially when the contractor has to "learn" a new rocket.

I just hope the delays in Falcon 9 Maiden aren't pushing COTS 1,2,3 back too far. Wonder how much the delay of the maiden delays the follow ons.
This being the first launch of the Falcon 9 and all, I do not have a problem with the delays personally. It would be an unmitigated disaster for the US space program and probably the end of Space X if this rocket were to crash and burn, so to speak, with all that is riding on the commercial LEO approach. It would be even worse if it were to crash and burn without a self-destruct system. As I have said before, they need to take ALL the time they need with this launch. There are many kinks to be worked out. I'll bet there are many things that we are not even aware of that this extra time is allowing them to uncover. If it takes another few months to get ready, so be it. A small price to pay to avoid a crushing failure. Once THIS Falcon 9 successfully gets off the ground , THEN we can worry about COTS launch schedules and such. THIS launch is pretty much experimental and more or less on par with the Ares-Ix launch, except that the Falcon 9 is actually a real rocket.
 
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mr_mark

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Re: Upcoming SpaceX Falcon 9 Flight 1 Launch

Even with all the checks something could go wrong. I'm sure it will not but, This will not be the end of Spacex or NASA's plans if something were to happen. They'll get it right, Elon has said that Spacex can survive four Falcon 9 failures up front. It seems that everything has been working as planned just delayed so lets hope for the best and wish Falcon 9 and Spacex a great first launch!
 
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nimbus

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Re: Upcoming SpaceX Falcon 9 Flight 1 Launch

mr_mark":9klm31gl said:
Elon has said that Spacex can survive four Falcon 9 failures up front.
That'd be great. Should be more than enough.
 
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job1207

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Re: Upcoming SpaceX Falcon 9 Flight 1 Launch

Proton got "certified "After 61 flights.

"Proton-K.
Proton 8K82K
Status: Retired 2000. Other Designations: Proton 3. Library of Congress Designation: D-1. Department of Defence Designation: SL-13. Article Number: 8K82K. Manufacturer's Designation: UR-500K.

Development of a three-stage version of the UR-500 was authorised in the decree of 3 August 1964. Decrees of 12 October and 11 November 1964 authorised development of the Almaz manned military space station and the manned circumlunar spacecraft LK-1 as payloads for the UR-500K. Remarkably, due to continuing failures, the 8K82K did not satisfactorily complete its state trials until its 61st launch (Salyut 6 / serial number 29501 / 29 September 1977). Thereafter it reached a level of launch reliability comparable to that of other world launch vehicles. "

Manufacturer: Chelomei. Launches: 334. Failures: 40. Success Rate: 88.02%. First Launch Date: 1965-07-16. Last Launch Date: 2008-01-28. Launch data is: continuing. Version:

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/proton.htm

Delta II

Manufacturer: Douglas. Launches: 704. Failures: 78. Success Rate: 88.92%. First Launch Date: 1957-01-26. Last Launch Date: 2007-12-20. Launch data is: continuing. Version:

So, TWO of the most reliable vehicles took SOME TIME, before they matured. Falcon 9 will not suffer the same fate, it will benefit from previous lessons. (Hopefully)

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/delta.htm
 
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vulture4

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Re: Upcoming SpaceX Falcon 9 Flight 1 Launch

I agree. The NASA approach, known by the term "failure tolerance", is essentially to make every system redundant in an attempt to prevent the first mission from having any risk. This seems logical to people without real hands-on experience, and is one of the fundamental requirements for the fabled "man-rating" but it is ineffective for three reasons:

1) Redundancy increases reliability only if failures are random. This can (rarely) occur during long mission phases, like the years the rovers spend on Mars, but launch lasts only a few minutes and there is no time for components to "wear out". Despite the high risk of launch, almost all launch failures are deterministic. A classic example is Challenger. It was "failure tolerant" because it had both primary and backup O-rings. Both failed simultaneously.

2) The only failures that can actually be mitigated are those that are anticipated, and if a failure is anticipated it can usually be avoided by a feasible design change.

3) The vehicle is saddled with the mass and cost of redundant and "failure-tolerant" systems for its entire operational life.

Thee are certainly times when redundancy makes good sense. But when requirements are discussed, I sometime bring up the question of whether the system reliability has even been accurately measured. If the system is reliable, redundancy may not be needed, while if the system is unreliable, redundancy may not help. Usually I have been politely ignored. Reliability is tedious to measure and people want instant answers.

What few in NASA remember is that the "all-up" systems engineering approach, where failure analysis and mitigation is all done on paper before the first launch, was adopted only during Apollo and only because it was a "crash program" under extreme time constraints. The traditional approach in aviation is to test components and systems extensively, adopting changes incrementally and only after they have been thoroughly tested in actual flight. That way, design problems can be identified and corrected without adding tons of redundancy. In the words of A-4 designer Ed Heinemann, "Simplicate and add lightness". It would be much better for SpaceX to lose a few early launches and end up with a design that is simple, reliable, and less expensive. Of course, it wouldn't make sense to put people on the vehicle until it has flown a dozen times or so, and any significant mod should be flown unmanned at least once.

However, even as we speak, there are those who denigrate SpaceX and indeed all "commercial" launch vehicles because they don't follow the NASA strategy. Yet Soyuz gets a bye on the whole mess. As a former industrial engineer, I sometimes tear out my hair.
 
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MeteorWayne

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Re: Upcoming SpaceX Falcon 9 Flight 1 Launch

MOD HAT ON****

These last several posts are a bit far off-topic for the Missions and Launches discussion, and might be better off in the general SpaceX discussion in Space Business and Technology.

Remember, here in Missions and Launches, the topic is specifically the SpaceX Falcon 9 Flight 1 Launch
I may decide to move them.

MW
 
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hansolo0

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Re: Upcoming SpaceX Falcon 9 Flight 1 Launch

In the latest episode of 'this week in space' with miles O'brien the latest projected launch date as of now was mentioned as may 8, 2010
 
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voyager4d

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Re: Upcoming SpaceX Falcon 9 Flight 1 Launch

hansolo0":1f2km1nz said:
In the latest episode of 'this week in space' with miles O'brien the latest projected launch date as of now was mentioned as may 8, 2010
Old news, the date was posted here 3. april..
 
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Boris_Badenov

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Re: Upcoming SpaceX Falcon 9 Flight 1 Launch

hansolo0":350ta88y said:
In the latest episode of 'this week in space' with miles O'brien the latest projected launch date as of now was mentioned as may 8, 2010
Jim at NASA SpaceFlight says May 22. I'll be happy if it happens by July & is 100% successful.
 
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ZiraldoAerospace

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Re: Upcoming SpaceX Falcon 9 Flight 1 Launch

Boris_Badenov":2x9q7wav said:
hansolo0":2x9q7wav said:
In the latest episode of 'this week in space' with miles O'brien the latest projected launch date as of now was mentioned as may 8, 2010
Jim at NASA SpaceFlight says May 22. I'll be happy if it happens by July & is 100% successful.
I really don't care if they take a couple of extra months, if that is what it takes to get a totally successful launch.
 
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mr_mark

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Re: Upcoming SpaceX Falcon 9 Flight 1 Launch

Tanking test this weekend and new cork design went well. The new cork stayed on. Now waiting for ok from US Airforce as far as self destruct trials.
 
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job1207

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Re: Upcoming SpaceX Falcon 9 Flight 1 Launch

May 8th is a week from Saturday. Any news?????
 
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Boris_Badenov

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Re: Upcoming SpaceX Falcon 9 Flight 1 Launch

job1207":zj9ausz2 said:
May 8th is a week from Saturday. Any news?????
Not that I've seen. They've been pretty close in the last few years, not making any announcement of F-1 launch times until the last minute. I don't expect them to say for certain that the launch is a go until 24 to 36 hours prior to lift off. They probably won't start the video until a couple hours before launch time either.
 
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stevekk

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Re: Upcoming SpaceX Falcon 9 Flight 1 Launch

I thought I read this week or last that the cork was used as a heat-shield / insulator for the first stage. Is this a common material to use on the first stage of a rocket ? Obviously, they want to re-use the engines from the first stage in subsequent launches, but I would have assumed they would use something a little more high-tech that cork.
 
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Zipi

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Re: Upcoming SpaceX Falcon 9 Flight 1 Launch

stevekk":1u58ucyk said:
I thought I read this week or last that the cork was used as a heat-shield / insulator for the first stage. Is this a common material to use on the first stage of a rocket ? Obviously, they want to re-use the engines from the first stage in subsequent launches, but I would have assumed they would use something a little more high-tech that cork.

Yes, but is that natural cork or synthetic cork? I'm pretty sure that it is synthetic one.
 
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trailrider

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Re: Upcoming SpaceX Falcon 9 Flight 1 Launch

stevekk":13l8cait said:
I thought I read this week or last that the cork was used as a heat-shield / insulator for the first stage. Is this a common material to use on the first stage of a rocket ? Obviously, they want to re-use the engines from the first stage in subsequent launches, but I would have assumed they would use something a little more high-tech that cork.

Not sure what kind of cork this is, but, yes, cork is often used as an insulator on the exterior of missiles. This can be to insulate the interior of liquid oxygen or hydrogen tanks to reduce the boiloff rate on the pad, but also to protect against the effects of recirculation heating from the exhaust either just after ignition and before liftoff from the pad, and also at altitude when the exhaust plume flows forward as ambient atmospheric pressure reduces. The cork will char, absorbing the heating effects as it does so. It was used on the exterior of Minuteman I, but I can't recall exactly where on the bird.
 
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Boris_Badenov

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Re: Upcoming SpaceX Falcon 9 Flight 1 Launch

Spaceflight Now says launch will be no earlier than May 11. The guy's at NASA Space Flight say if it doesn't launch by May 9 it'll be pushed back to June.
Looks like a June launch to me.
 
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SpeedRunner

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Re: Upcoming SpaceX Falcon 9 Flight 1 Launch

I understand the complexities of space flight, but man... delay, delay, delay. It's a lot of suspense, I can't wait to see this thing fly.
 
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trailrider

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Re: Upcoming SpaceX Falcon 9 Flight 1 Launch

SpeedRunner":2p5xb7c6 said:
I understand the complexities of space flight, but man... delay, delay, delay. It's a lot of suspense, I can't wait to see this thing fly.

That applies to a lot of us! The delays may not be so much a matter of any problems concerning the Falcon 9 or the Dragon spacecraft, as being sure there are no foreseeable problems. The rest of it may be a matter of range scheduling. I haven't kept track of what will go down there, but between a Shuttle launch, and whatever else, plus the time necessary to "reset" the range, it can amount to considerable delays.
 
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shuttle_guy

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Re: Upcoming SpaceX Falcon 9 Flight 1 Launch

We are told that the big issue is the Air Force and FAA analysis of the flight termination system.
 
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shuttle_guy

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Re: Upcoming SpaceX Falcon 9 Flight 1 Launch

Today's Florida Today newspaper has a article stating that the launch is the 11...they do not say if the termination system has been approved thus they could just be going by the latest launch no earlier than date.
 
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js117

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Re: Upcoming SpaceX Falcon 9 Flight 1 Launch

Chris Bergin NSF Managing Editor Administrator says New NET is Sunday, May 23 at 1:00pm.
 
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SpeedRunner

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Re: Upcoming SpaceX Falcon 9 Flight 1 Launch

SpaceX released an update today with information on the status of the current Falcon 9 mission. The new article is a good read, and has lots of pretty pictures. There are pictures of Elon Musk and his team meeting with President Obama, and also pictures of the production of Falcon 9 Flights 2 & 3. Everything looks to be going rather well.

http://www.spacex.com/updates.php
 
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