Thought experiment synthesis of CCC(Penrose), Holographic theory (Gerard 't Hooft) & Klein bottle form (Alan Watts)

[Ricmac]

Title: "Exploring a Synthesis of CCC, Holographic Theory, and Klein Bottle form"

Description:

I’ve been thinking about how three fascinating ideas from cosmology and philosophy might intersect, and I’d love to hear others' thoughts on it. The theories I’m considering are:

1. Penrose's Conformal Cyclic Cosmology (CCC), which suggests the universe undergoes infinite cycles, with each "aeon" transitioning into the next in a way that feels almost seamless, but also raises questions about the nature of boundaries between these cycles.
2. Gerard 't Hooft’s Holographic Principle, which suggests that all the information inside a space can be encoded on its boundary — in essence, the 3D universe we experience could be a projection of information from a lower-dimensional surface.
3. The Klein Bottle, a non-orientable surface where there is no distinct "inside" or "outside" — an idea explored by Alan Watts, who described it as a "flip" on itself, a continual surface that loops back onto itself in a way that defies conventional ideas of direction or boundary.

I’m wondering if these concepts could be linked together in a meaningful way. For example, could the transition between aeons in CCC be imagined as a holographic boundary, where the end of one cycle and the beginning of the next form a continuous flow? This might mirror how Watts describes the "flip" on the Klein bottle, a smooth transition from one phase to another, with no real distinction between inside and outside.

Furthermore, the asymmetric form of the universe suggested by the mathematics of CCC might imply that the universe is not simply cyclical in the way we usually think, but rather that the information of the cosmos (like the holographic principle suggests) might be imprinted on a 2D surface — not flat, but potentially warped in the same way a Klein bottle distorts our usual concepts of space and time.

I’m not sure if any of this fits together neatly, but it seems like an interesting place to explore. I’d love to hear what others think, whether you see connections, have different interpretations, or think there’s something important I’m missing. (I‘ve used GPT to help summarize this)
Regards,
Ricmac

 

[Atlan0001]

Try this on for size:

Page 37 - From a drop of water....

Page 37 - Seeking answers about space? Join the Space community: the premier source of space exploration, innovation, and astronomy news, chronicling (and celebrating) humanity's ongoing expansion across the final frontier.

forums.space.com

With a dab of this:

Teen Mathematicians Tie Knots Through a Mind-Blowing Fractal | Quanta Magazine

Three high schoolers and their mentor revisited a century-old theorem to prove that all knots can be found in a fractal called the Menger sponge.

www.quantamagazine.org

 

[Gibsense]

Roger Penrose's transitioning seems rather vague to me. The idea of an ultimate black hole changing to a white hole is not particularly original - a transition from one universe to rebirth. The problem is 'how can this be done'

Some one mentioned a mirror effect - a situation drawn by myself - essentially just a reversed black hole where the joining is a process of time reversal.

The holographic projection is just a reversal of a 3D object as encoded on a 2D surface. In my opinion it just excuses not taking the effort to understand how our 3D universe might be a hypersphere i.e the surface of a 4D Ball.

As for the Klien Bottle, I suppose this satisfies peoples' longing for the universe to be complete of itself instead of the turtles standing on the back of turtles dilemma.

To me the real issue is "What is Time". That is something I am rather sure I have pinned down many times on this forum. I do not wish to be rude but I have great difficulty in accepting the apparent defeat of cosmologists that seemingly continue to believe that time runs one direction (parallel) in 4D embedding space. This is so obviously wrong as time runs orthogonally to space and space curves.

That alone solves a load of issues (IMO). The final step is to accept that time is a process and not a particular (specific) direction or unique vector. It is a process occurring in 4D space in a direction orthogonally to the other 3 : The radius of a hypersphere's expansion. Simple.

 

[Ricmac]

Thanks for your response Gibsense. I agree that the transitional aspect between aeons, combined with the idea of photons (conformally invariant) managing to pass across the boundary to the remote future seems vague. I watched this presentation:

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fMV2cphelx0

An Escher tessellation was used as an example of hyperbolic geometry representing infinity. The Klein form came to me as I imagined the tessellation pattern superimposed on an continuous surface. It just seemed neat, but like you say, it’s more perhaps a compulsive need for envisioning a universe complete of itself.

I can’t pin down anything about the nature of time other that it makes the subjective viewer finite and the objective universe infinite. Darn the constant dualistic subject/object experience of my brain.

 

[Ricmac]

Try this on for size:

Page 37 - From a drop of water....

Page 37 - Seeking answers about space? Join the Space community: the premier source of space exploration, innovation, and astronomy news, chronicling (and celebrating) humanity's ongoing expansion across the final frontier.

forums.space.com

With a dab of this:

Teen Mathematicians Tie Knots Through a Mind-Blowing Fractal | Quanta Magazine

Three high schoolers and their mentor revisited a century-old theorem to prove that all knots can be found in a fractal called the Menger sponge.

www.quantamagazine.org

Thanks Atlan001, some very interesting links. The Mandelbrot zoom is a mind bender, like a fractal version of this piece of photo art: https://socks-studio.com/2015/04/23/things-are-queer-by-duane-michals-1973/
The Universe is all about SCALE and from the world of comedy… timing.

 

[Atlan0001]

Roger Penrose's transitioning seems rather vague to me. The idea of an ultimate black hole changing to a white hole is not particularly original - a transition from one universe to rebirth. The problem is 'how can this be done'

Some one mentioned a mirror effect - a situation drawn by myself - essentially just a reversed black hole where the joining is a process of time reversal.

The holographic projection is just a reversal of a 3D object as encoded on a 2D surface. In my opinion it just excuses not taking the effort to understand how our 3D universe might be a hypersphere i.e the surface of a 4D Ball.

As for the Klien Bottle, I suppose this satisfies peoples' longing for the universe to be complete of itself instead of the turtles standing on the back of turtles dilemma.

To me the real issue is "What is Time". That is something I am rather sure I have pinned down many times on this forum. I do not wish to be rude but I have great difficulty in accepting the apparent defeat of cosmologists that seemingly continue to believe that time runs one direction (parallel) in 4D embedding space. This is so obviously wrong as time runs orthogonally to space and space curves.

That alone solves a load of issues (IMO). The final step is to accept that time is a process and not a particular (specific) direction or unique vector. It is a process occurring in 4D space in a direction orthogonally to the other 3 : The radius of a hypersphere's expansion. Simple.

SPACE is (hyper-spaces are) as soft and elusive as gravity is, so to speak. SPACETIME is diamond hard TIME, again so to speak, that both microcosmically and macrocosmically shatters to (sic) quantum discrete quanta bits (aka "qubits", increasingly) like the elemental pieces of quantum mechanics it is (look to Max Planck, Werner Heisenberg, Erwin Schrodinger, et al.).

 

[Ricmac]

SPACE is (hyper-spaces are) as soft and elusive as gravity is, so to speak. SPACETIME is diamond hard time, again so to speak, that both microcosmically and macrocosmically shatters to (sic) quantum discrete quanta bits (aka "qubits", increasingly) like the elemental pieces of quantum mechanics it is (look to Max Planck, Werner Heisenberg, Erwin Schrodinger, et al.).

Hmmm… so this views SPACE/Hyper-spaces as smooth and spongey (wave-like) whereas SPACETIME is a more isolated ‘bits’(particle-like, Planck lengths)? And then entanglement makes it even more complex. Might it be the characteristics of photons that cause the emergence of time?

 

[Atlan0001]

Ad #6:

The problem is that there are two other separate and equal dimensions. The closed up collapsed cosmological constant (/\) superposition (P) (BC) (BB) 'Mirror Event Horizon', and the entangling spontaneously concurrent (t=0) REALTIME NOW (t=0) instant moment that ties to the Horizon Universe's (U) horizon universes' (u) infinities and eternity in the manner of Einstein's "Spooky action at a distance" here and now (everywhere here and now is) 'soliton' bubbles!

 

[Atlan0001]

Hmmm… so this views SPACE/Hyper-spaces as smooth and spongey (wave-like) whereas SPACETIME is a more isolated ‘bits’(particle-like, Planck lengths)? And then entanglement makes it even more complex.

Dang it! You're beating me to it! Stop that!

 

[Ricmac]

Hmmm… so this views SPACE/Hyper-spaces as smooth and spongey (wave-like) whereas SPACETIME is a more isolated ‘bits’(particle-like, Planck lengths)? And then entanglement makes it even more complex. Might it be the characteristics of photons that cause the emergence of time?

 

[Atlan0001]

I like nothing more than people who can see me but travel in their own independent paths to realizations. Keep it up! Welcome Ricmac to the game! Welcome, WELCOME!

Answer your questions yourself to your own lasting satisfaction whether it takes years, or you already have. The "lasting" part is the most important part (and that comes only from within your own mind's eye seeing ever increasing and solidifying facets and dimensions)! Most of my potential answers to you would be in my own expansive picture modeling in the thread "From a drop of water...."

 

[Ricmac]

I like nothing more than people who can see me but travel in their own independent paths to realizations. Keep it up! Welcome Ricmac to the game! Welcome, WELCOME!

Answer your questions yourself to your own lasting satisfaction whether it takes years, or you already have. The "lasting" part is the most important part (and that comes only from within your own mind's eye seeing)! Most of my potential answers to you would be in my own picture modeling in the thread "From a drop of water...."

Thank you for the kind words. I will let my curiosity last as long as possible and give my existence in this little hub of the universe a good run for it’s money. It’s those transitional periods of thought just before falling asleep, when questions and ideas ‘pop-up’ from the inner. I’ll keep that inner dialogue going. I’ll look deeper into the "From a drop of water...." thread and chew on it. Cheers

 

[Gibsense]

Ricmac your comments re the speed of light and time are, in my view, correct. The speed of light is more about Spatial Expansion and Time. Perhaps it is valid to reverse the logic and postulate that the spatial expansion actually causes time and the speed of light or even that light causes time etc.
The real point is that Time, EMR, and Expansion are all combined in the structure of spacetime. Relativity does a good job but the missing link is the expansion of Spacetime and its overall shape, something I have been suggesting here for the last year (and someone has published a book expressing exactly that it seems).

 

[Ricmac]

Ricmac your comments re the speed of light and time are, in my view, correct. The speed of light is more about Spatial Expansion and Time. Perhaps it is valid to reverse the logic and postulate that the spatial expansion actually causes time and the speed of light or even that light causes time etc.
The real point is that Time, EMR, and Expansion are all combined in the structure of spacetime. Relativity does a good job but the missing link is the expansion of Spacetime and its overall shape, something I have been suggesting here for the last year (and someone has published a book expressing exactly that it seems).

Appreciate your follow up on my query Gibsense about the characteristics of photons and Time. It’s very fascinating and yet confusing to know which direction the logic takes. Sometimes a good deal of my semantic understanding gets in the way of me trying to grasp connections but I think I’m widening the scope as I get used to the hard science.

 

[Gibsense]

Appreciate your follow up on my query Gibsense about the characteristics of photons and Time. It’s very fascinating and yet confusing to know which direction the logic takes. Sometimes a good deal of my semantic understanding gets in the way of me trying to grasp connections but I think I’m widening the scope as I get used to the hard science.

Thanks for that. I found if I kept reading and thinking eventually it started to make sense.