Titan has no breaking waves

[tom_hobbes]

Is there any more info on smaller bodies of liquid as yet?<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Titan has no breaking waves<br /> <br />14:51 10 November 04<br /> <br />NewScientist.com news service<br /> <br /><br />Ideas about the nature of Saturn's moon Titan are going through a total revolution as a result of new observations from the Cassini space probe.<br /><br />For many years, the prevailing view has been that Titan, hidden under perpetual cloud cover, was the only place in the solar system other than Earth whose surface was dominated by large liquid lakes or oceans up to three kilometres deep.<br /><br />But close-ups of the surface completely rule out such widespread liquid bodies, say scientists in the Cassini team.<br /><br />The liquid was thought to be hydrocarbons such as ethane rather than water, because of Titan's frigid -179°C surface temperature. There had been hope that these bodies of liquid might harbour early stages in the development of biological molecules, and perhaps even simple forms of life.<br /><br />All that has changed, according to planetary scientist Robert Nelson of NASA-JPL. "That paradigm has been shaken to its foundations," he said on Tuesday at the American Astronomical Society's Division of Planetary Sciences annual meeting.<br /><br />Full article, New Scientist:</font><br /><br />http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996652 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#339966"> I wish I could remember<br /> But my selective memory<br /> Won't let me</font><font size="2" color="#99cc00"> </font><font size="3" color="#339966"><font size="2">- </font></font><font size="1" color="#339966">Mark Oliver Everett</font></p><p> </p> </div>

 

[rogers_buck]

I guess we still have the market cornered on beach-front property. This solar system sucks...

 

[tom_hobbes]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>This solar system sucks...<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />**** dude let's move, I'm game! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#339966"> I wish I could remember<br /> But my selective memory<br /> Won't let me</font><font size="2" color="#99cc00"> </font><font size="3" color="#339966"><font size="2">- </font></font><font size="1" color="#339966">Mark Oliver Everett</font></p><p> </p> </div>

 

[nopatience]

could the dense fog defract light so that we wouldn't see reflextions?

 

[tom_hobbes]

I'm not sure if that's relevant to radar imaging. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#339966"> I wish I could remember<br /> But my selective memory<br /> Won't let me</font><font size="2" color="#99cc00"> </font><font size="3" color="#339966"><font size="2">- </font></font><font size="1" color="#339966">Mark Oliver Everett</font></p><p> </p> </div>

 

[robnissen]

It seems to me this article is jumping to conclusions. So far, only about 1% of Titan's surface has been imaged by radar. My guess is, that if the Sahara desert was the only thing imaged during a flyby of earth, earth would look to be without water. I would think we would need to have imaged more of Titan before we could come to the conclusion that it has no large bodies of liquid.

 

[centsworth_II]

I think the thing they are not seeing is the glint of sunlight off the surface of a body of liquid -- or multiple glints if the surface were "wavey". This would be seen in the light images (as opposed to radar) that have been taken of most of the surface. So it seems that they can rule out substantial liquid on most of the surface. But not frozen over liquid. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[rogers_buck]

They were looking for the optical glint, but the bright radar returns are also indicative of something they would call a "lake if it were earth". I think the glint would show up because of the higher refectivity at that point on the surface. The atmosphere would have to be coincidentally thicker over the "glint" path not to show up. Only Opportunity has that kind of luck.

 

[CalliArcale]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>For many years, the prevailing view has been that Titan, hidden under perpetual cloud cover, was the only place in the solar system other than Earth whose surface was dominated by large liquid lakes or oceans up to three kilometres deep. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Not to nitpick or anything, but this is not an accurate characterization. The prevailing view was that it was the only place where large liquid lakes or oceans at the surface were <i>possible</i>. Debate over whether or not those lakes actually exist has been very spirited. It's sort of like Shroedinger's Cat; it doesn't revolutionize anything to open the box and find out that the cat is dead, but it does further your understanding of the cat's state of existence by showing you something which you did not know before.<br /><br />So I'm not really sure what paradigm has been shaken to its foundations, as the JPL scientist put it. I'd like to know more of the context, and know what question was asked at the press conference in order to produce that sound bite. I used to watch those press conferences on NASA TV, but Ive been too busy lately.<br /><br />Another problem in the article was that radar measurements from Arecibo did not indicate that 1/3 of Titan was wet; it indicated that there was a dramatic and unexpected specular glint, as you'd expect off of a calm ocean <i>or<i> a very flat icy surface. So it was never a given that Titan would have vast oceans. In fact, many scientists thought scattered lakes were more likely, and others favored slushy messes.<br /><br />So what's really happened here is that, going back to the Shroedinger analogy, the waveform of the possible different models for Titan's surface are being collapsed into one (the truth) as we learn more about it. Personally, I find the possibility of cryovolcanism extremely exciting. There are very few places where active volcanism has been observed in the solar system. I think</i></i> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[igorsboss]

It's those dang scientists, up to their old tricks again!<br /><br />First they clearcut the Venusian Jungle, now they dry up the Titanian Ocean!<br /><br />Let's all gang up on them and throw them off the edge of the world!

 

[volcanopele2]

Don't forget ethane. But Ta data seems to show no large bodies of liquid on the anti-Saturnian hemisphere. The southern sub-Saturnian hemisphere is a different story I think.

 

[tom_hobbes]

volcanopele2,<br /><br />Can't wait to find out!<br /><br />Calli,<br /><br />I think I agree. The article does over egg the 'prevailing view.' Perhaps it was the prevailing hope.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#339966"> I wish I could remember<br /> But my selective memory<br /> Won't let me</font><font size="2" color="#99cc00"> </font><font size="3" color="#339966"><font size="2">- </font></font><font size="1" color="#339966">Mark Oliver Everett</font></p><p> </p> </div>