Toilets on the Moon

[willpittenger]

I figure most Orion missions to the Moon will be co-ed. So in the small confines of a lander, how do we provide privacy for those needing a toliet? If the Apollo era "toliets" were used, such mixed gender crews would have to be very intimate and not afraid of showing off. The same problem might also happen when putting spacesuits on if there is nothing under the cooling suit. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[vogon13]

Once you have seen one ovu-duct orifice, you have seen them all . . . .<br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>

 

[kane007]

Starship Troopers .... here we come.<br /><br />Our boys' child cares have unisex loos so maybe the 2018 generation will have been brought up taking it for granted.

 

[rocketman5000]

Could be very true, some colleges have coed bathrooms in dormitories. Those that don't have official coed bathrooms often find them occupied by the opposite sex anyhow...

 

[kane007]

Hahaha, reminds me Varsity capping week stunts - the infamous Auckland Uni pup crawl through downtown Auckland.<br /><br />Toilets got so overloaded in the pubs the sheila's started queuing up in the mens for the few cubicles. <br /><br />Though this probably now needs transferring to freespace? <br /><img src="/images/icons/cool.gif" />

 

[spacester]

The chicks love going into men's rooms when their's overflows. They always seem to think they were the first women in history to think of it. <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> I bet that's worldwide. <br /><br />I'll try to drag it back on topic, the basic question seems answered.<br /><br />It is assumed that in lunar manned habitats, water will be recycled to a high degree, and other recycling streams will be pursued.<br /><br />This is a closed environment and the prospect of an epidemic is scary. So I've gotta ask . . . do you even bother considering recycling the solid fecal material, or do you just put that into long-term dead-end storage somewhere?<br /><br />Water from urine, given proper technology, I can handle that. But is it really worth going after #2? I could never get that out of my head, for one thing. Plus, how much equipment would be required to recycle that small mass of organics? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[kane007]

Also the question that begs asking is what else can 'poop' be used for. Basically we need to break down to its constituent parts.<br /><br />The scoop on poop website is quite handy.<br /><br />"About 3/4 of your average turd is made of water. Of course, this value is highly variable - the water content of diarrhea is much higher, and the amount of water in poop that has been retained (voluntarily or otherwise) is lower. Water is absorbed out of fecal material as it passes through the intestine, so the longer a turd resides inside before emerging, the drier it will be.<br /> Of the remaining portion of the turd, about 1/3 is composed of dead bacteria. These microcorpses come from the intestinal garden of microorganisms that assist us in the digestion of our food. Another 1/3 of the turd mass is made of stuff that we find indigestible, like cellulose, for instance. This indigestible material is called "fiber," and is useful in getting the turd to move along through the intestine, perhaps because it provides traction. The remaining portion of the turd is a mixture of fats such as cholesterol, inorganic salts like phosphates, live bacteria, dead cells and mucus from the lining of the intestine, and protein."<br /><br />Now cellulose, isn't that used in the manufacture of medical capsules? <img src="/images/icons/cool.gif" />

 

[dreada5]

How much privacy is there on the shuttle?<br /><br />Can't believe it'd be VASTLY different? <br /><br /><br />* woohoo, i'm an asteriod!! <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" />

 

[bpfeifer]

I don't know about the shuttle, but I believe the Soyuz has a "plug and play" toilet, and they've flown mixed crews. At least Anoushe Ansari shared the capsule with two guys. So it's been done. I think in general, when you perform extreme activities, you expect less in the way of personal comfort, privacy, etc. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Brian J. Pfeifer http://sabletower.wordpress.com<br /> The Dogsoldier Codex http://www.lulu.com/sabletower<br /> </div>

 

[mrmorris]

<font color="yellow">"...I believe the Soyuz has a "plug and play" toilet..."</font><br /><br />I'm *pretty sure* the facilities on the Soyuz are in the orbital module... so Anoushe would have been doing the nasty (no... the <b>other</b> nasty) in room two of the <i>Soyuz Suite</i>.

 

[bpfeifer]

"Surely it would make perfect fertilizer."<br /><br />When you get around to seriously trying to grow crops in spce, you have some serious obstacles to overcome. It's a matter of building a whole new life support loop, and it's complicated my the number of living organisms required.<br /><br />As for straight up fertilizer, urine is much better than fecal matter. The live bacteria in poop needs to be killed off, and there's stuff in poop, that the plants can't absorb directly. First you need to compost it, along with all of the plant waste that you can't consume. This includes stems, leaves, roots, etc. And composting means more bacteria. You need to ensure that you add only the bacteria you want, mix it thuroughly and regulary, and then kill it all off before you add the mess to the plants. NASA researchers are working on composting techniques. I have no idea how far they've gotten, but being able to recycle all waste is important for long duration missions. If we can't learn to recycle our poop, then we are SOL. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Brian J. Pfeifer http://sabletower.wordpress.com<br /> The Dogsoldier Codex http://www.lulu.com/sabletower<br /> </div>

 

[mrmorris]

<font color="yellow">"This is a closed environment and the prospect of an epidemic is scary. So I've gotta ask . . . do you even bother considering recycling the solid fecal material, or do you just put that into long-term dead-end storage somewhere?"</font><br /><br />Given two-week missions similar to Apollo landings (i.e. spread effectively randomly about the surface of the moon) -- poop will get tossed.<br /><br />Given 180-day missions at a manned lunar base, there is <b>no fricking way</b> that we won't see experimental testing at the very minimum of mixing regolith with Astronaut droppings to investigate the possibility of 'Farming with Fecolith'. Sterilizing is pretty easy on the moon with easy access to ridiculously high levels of heat during daylight periods. My quickie guess would be that they would take the 'sludge' of the two excretory processes, pressurize it to greater than 1-atmosphere and use a heat exchanger to raise the temperature above 100-degrees C for a while (the high-pressure will prevent it from boiling... which likely wouldn't be good). Then compost it with the remains of any uneaten food -- and if NASA has the foresight -- the bio-degradable wrappings that the food came in as well. The results should be low-odor & high-grade organics to make great fecolith.

 

[webtaz99]

Umm, let's take up Lunar gardening in another thread, umkay? <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />While I don't know the precise plans for Orion, I do know NASA has investigated a technique (generically called "pyrolysis") where waste could be heated by microwaves to as much as 1600 C in an oxygen-free environment. This would allow recovery of all the water, gaurantee complete sterilization, and even "decompose" complex molecules into simpler ones.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[rocketman5000]

Very interesting thread guys, I think we could all agree that fecal mater is an important asset and once on the moon should at least be stored for future use. Shouldn't be that difficult to store. Pryolysis it for the water, and have it packaged in a storable medium. If you compost it you could also get a small amount of methane gas that could be useful for lunar night fuel cells or a minute amount of rocket fuel.

 

[mrmorris]

<font color="yellow">"If you compost it you could also get a small amount of methane gas..."</font><br /><br />Depends. If you sterilize it and store it, you won't get methane, because you've just killed off the bacteria that would have produced it. If you sterilize it, then mix it with other elements as I suggested earlier, <b>then</b> add a 'bacteria cocktail' to said mix to facilitate organic breakdown (i.e. composting), then the bacteria will probably be of a variety that produces methane.<br /><br />A quick Google provided this link on Methane Digesters. The process actually looks like one that would be well-suited for a lunar base. The process is anerobic so no vital oxygen is being depleted. The document describes how to make methane generators using insulated air-tight containers where waste goes in and methane and fertilizer come out. <br /><br /><i>"It is possible to mimic and hasten the natural anaerobic process by putting organic wastes (manure and vegetable matter) into insulated, air-tight containers called digesters. Digesters are of two types:<br /><br />Batch-load digesters which are filled all at once, sealed, and emptied when the raw material has stopped producing gas; and <br />Continuous-load digesters which are fed a little, regularly, so that gas and fertilizer are produced continuously. <br />The digester is fed with a mixture of water and wastes, called "slurry." Inside the digester, each daily load of fresh slurry flows in one end and displaces the previous day's load which bacteria and other microbes have already started to digest.<br /><br />Each load progresses down the length of the digester to a point where the methane bacteria are active. At this point large bubbles force their way to the surface where the gas accumulates. The gas is very similar to natural gas and can be burned directly for heat and light, stored for future use, or c</i>

 

[rocketman5000]

good stuff... perhaps pryolisis the mixture after composting? probably the most energy efficient.

 

[spacester]

Good posts.<br /><br />I worry about two things here.<br /><br />1) It seems possible (likely?) given recent discoveries of extremophiles, that any process that recycles fecal material back into the 'biosphere' leaves the door open to the development of a new line of fecal bacteria that can survive whatever sterilizing processes we throw at it. Yes, there's vacuum and UV and cold and hot, but those buggers will find a way, given enough time. How long do we have before this hidden menace causes an epidemic? Why set ourselves up with a ticking bomb?<br /><br />2. The mass of additional equipment required to fully process poop should be balanced against the value of the poop. The equipment is expensive, the poop is of little value. How much poop mass are we talking about anyway? Any base / settlement / colony is going to be dealing with scores of tons of supplies, wouldn't it make more sense to just use the minimum amount of equipment to deal with poop, and simply dead-end it to long-term storage?<br /><br />I'm thinking we should remove the water and harvest the methane, but use the water only as grey water and use the methane carefully. The residue should go into long-term storage. Keeps those buggers away from us. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

Fertilizer might be awkward. On the moon, soil will be hard to come by. So I figure all plants will be hydroponically grown. As such, all fertilizer needs to be dissolved in the nuitritent stream. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>The live bacteria in fecal matter needs to be killed off.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Is that what farmers do with manure? I figured they used it straight. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

The shuttle is roomy compared to a lunar lander. It has enough space for a toliet on the mid-deck. I believe it is seperated from the rest of the mid-deck by a curtain. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[scottb50]

In a short term scenerio you are probably right, but in an on-going situation it would amount to quite a bit of waste that could be recycled. I would thing recovering water would be a priority, unless launch costs can be reduced dramatically every gallon of water would cost thousands to transport.<br /><br />As for the solid waste it might be simpler to discard the dried material or use it for building material when mixed with local material. I would think you are right in the complexity of equipment that would be needed for recycling as well as the real or perceived health problems. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[trailrider]

A quick Google provided this link on Methane Digesters. The process actually looks like one that would be well-suited for a lunar base. The process is anerobic so no vital oxygen is being depleted. The document describes how to make methane generators using insulated air-tight containers where waste goes in and methane and fertilizer come out. <br /><br />"It is possible to mimic and hasten the natural anaerobic process by putting organic wastes (manure and vegetable matter) into insulated, air-tight containers called digesters. Digesters are of two types: <br /><br />Batch-load digesters which are filled all at once, sealed, and emptied when the raw material has stopped producing gas; and <br />Continuous-load digesters which are fed a little, regularly, so that gas and fertilizer are produced continuously. <br />The digester is fed with a mixture of water and wastes, called "slurry." Inside the digester, each daily load of fresh slurry flows in one end and displaces the previous day's load which bacteria and other microbes have already started to digest. <br /><br />Each load progresses down the length of the digester to a point where the methane bacteria are active. At this point large bubbles force their way to the surface where the gas accumulates. The gas is very similar to natural gas and can be burned directly for heat and light, stored for future use, or compressed to power heat engines." <br /><br />Back in 1971, while I was back in college for a second degree, in mechanical engineering, after a tour of duty with the USAF, I had to do an engineering project. I came up with a thing I called Project Space Ecology Waste Energy Recovery System (Project SEWERS). I found a 1 lbf laboratory rocket engine nobody was using, and after refurbishing and modifying it to burn gaseous methane and GO2, and NOT being a chemist, went to the local sewage treatment plant and collected the natural gas that was coming off the digesters. The stuff was about 55 percent methane, the rest

 

[mrmorris]

<font color="yellow">"2. The mass of additional equipment required to fully process poop..."</font><br /><br />Recall I'm talking about the lunar outpost -- not individual landings. 180 days with three people minimum = lots of poop. If you assume the base is around 3-5 years (one would <b>hope so</b>), and likely more than three people for much of that time, the pile gets pretty deep.<br /><br />Mind you -- they don't *have* to grow food crops in the Fecolith. You might use something like this system where cyanobacteria are used to convert CO2 into oxygen. The goals of this system don't match exactly, so the systems wouldn't be quite the same, but similarities might include the use of sunlight piped in by fiber-optic cables to grow plants designed solely for CO2-reduction.<br /><br />Plus -- we can't forget the fact that the Moon is *supposed* to be a stepping stone to Mars. Even if we can afford to ignore the latent value of poop on the moon -- the same is not true of a Mars mission. There are many on this board who claim there is nothing of value for a mission to Mars to be gained from going to the moon first. The development and testing of a Manure To Methane And More apparatus would put the lie to that.

 

[bushuser]

It's true that urine makes a useful substrate for fertilizer. The second most abundant component [after water] is urea, which can be converted to ammonia, then ammonia fertilizer. <br /><br />The fecal stream could be used for fertilizer, but may be better used elsewhere. A methane factory could be seriously helpful for launching payloads off the moon, with it's low escape velocity.

 

[mrmorris]

<font color="yellow">"The fecal stream could be used for fertilizer, but may be better used elsewhere. A methane factory could be seriously helpful for launching payloads..."</font><br /><br />You didn't read the link I provided. The methane digester produces Methane *and* fertilizer.