Toilets on the Moon

[ldyaidan]

Good info. I think you've got some really good ideas. As far as food production, hydroponics will produce a lot more food in a lot less space than crops grown in soil. If the compost mixture can be done in such a way as to replace the nutrient solution for the hydroponics units, then that would be fantastic. I also agree with the need to sterilize any human wastes. We carry a lot of bacteria. In the event that a colonist got sick, failure to sterilze the wastes could easily infect the entire colony. Even in "earthbound" greenhouses, a great deal of emphasis is put on sterilzing equipment and such. In a situation where survival could easily depend on keeping bacteria under control, both among the crops and among the people, this would even be more important. Minor illnesses that we take for granted here could be catestrophic if allowed to spread in an enclosed environment.<br /><br />Rae

 

[mrmorris]

OK -- one last post and them I'm through with the subject. Mind you, I've said that before on threads and then been drawn back in...<br /><br />Your arguments seem to be centered around two basic premises.<br /><br />1 -- The possibility of introducing pathogens from human waste into the food supply are too dangerous to rely on sterilization of the sludge being 100% effective -- or at the least would add enough complexity to the system as to not be worthwhile.<br />2 -- The methane produced won't be a primary power source but a supplemental power source and is therefore of secondary importance.<br /><br />I disagree with the first, as I don't think sterilization is as difficult as you feel -- but I'll let it go. However, did you note the third bullet on the quote about hydroponics in my above post?<br /><br /><font color="yellow">"- They can serve as convenient high-yield sources of raw materials for the digester itself."</font><br /><br />The text actually goes into that in some depth, basically using the sludge to grow algea to put into the digetser to make sludge to grow algea. On each cycle -- methane continues to be produced. Effectively the digester is designed *soley* to produce methane. Pathogens are never introduced as none of the plants grown are for human consumption.<br /><br />This brings me to my problem with the second argument. For a lunar base, having a secondary... or even a tertiary source of power may be of 'secondary' importance. However, given that without power, the base, and everyone in it will die... that's not synonymous with 'unimportant'. Even if all the methane does is sit in tanks ready to run a backup generator in case a meteroid impact hits the solar panels... this is definitely worth having. Given a loop such as is described, the amount of methane available for such should grow rather rapidly. As a side effect, the algea will convert a good bit of CO2 into O2, supplementing the ECLSS.<br /><br />However, let me once again brin

 

[j05h]

I just read the last (long) page of this thread, it's pretty interesting. This is an extremely complex issue even on Earth and we have a lot of hands-on farming to do in space before we remotely know what to expect.<br /><br />For human crops, any waste-reclamation needs to be composted. It's not just manure, but re-digested feces that has been bacterially cooked for a certain period. Proper compost isn't just feces on a crop but has been bacterially digested. A critical point, however, is that soil crops (vs hydroponics) require a living soil to work. You need bacteria (but healthy ones), worms, pollinators and other critters to make soil work properly. Sterilized dirt is growth medium, not a true soil. <br /><br />Any human waste needs to be sterilized or broken into components electrochemically. A multistage, biologically driven system is my first choice. There are terrestrial sewer systems that work like this, but we need to have it integrated into a miniature, food-and-oxy-producing ecosystem. Human waste will spend several steps separated from plant (and other animal) waste. This just means a need for multiple digesters, and it's not a bad thing. Human waste could first be processed to make methane, then dehydrated (extracting useful h2o) and turned into meal (along with bones and some plant fiber) for feeding shrimp, krill and small fish. These then feed larger animals, and there waste is processed by plants. Other issues include prion diseases which again would recommend multiple protein recyclings and keeping E Coli under control. Human waste isn't unusable, but it needs to be treated carefully.<br /><br />There was a guy on the radio yesterday who makes a 5-gallon "bucket light" that uses bacterial electron transfer and feces to power an LED light. If you had stable tunnels or extra modules, you might be able to build bacterial backup power systems directly. <br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[spacester]

mrmorris, I don't mean to be a pest, but my goodness this thread has taken this topic a lot further than previous threads here, thanks to your posts. Perhaps I should have warned you that are you dealing with a possible lunatic: I'm a guy who wanted to talk about a Lunar Farm with fish and chickens and rabbits and goats. LOL, not that the animal husbandry would get that carried away that soon in my actual vision.<br /><br />Which brings me to the premises you derived from my ramblings. The overall premise, not mentioned, is that one kind of operation does things one way and another operation another way. I'm trying to keep in mind three modes and it has to be confusing to the reader: what NASA will most likely actually do, what an operation dedicated to hydroponics only is likely to do, and what an operation with habitat integrated with hydroponics is likely to do. The fourth mode is the more or less detailed plan I have in mind as a baseline for my lunar dome vision, a large scale implementation of the third mode.<br /><br />The first premise you stated is on target. The second premise is conditioned by the mode of operation as just described. In my personal vision, the challenge of high productivity agriculture (and aquaculture) over-rides propellant production because the power infrastructure is intended to always be a step ahead of the need for it, in other words energy rich.<br /><br />I really like where you're going with the methane production's priority in terms of emergency power and as propellant and as Mars precursor capability. Methane is certainly not unimportant, those are excellent uses (propulsion in particular) and what I would use it for in my lunar dome operation. An additional cash crop, but my hydroponics operation is primarily about food production.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[spacester]

<img src="/images/icons/cool.gif" /><br /><br />I see a mainline hydroponics operation supplying food crops, composted material coming from the associated habitat, sans human feces, being channeled into the experimental soil crop area. Soil crops would initially use very little regolith but would have the goal of increasing the percentage used to find an optimum. Excess organic material would be digested, multiple digesters and pyrolysis would be used to provide operational flexibility as an operational steady state is sought. An aquaculture operation would run in association with the hydroponics, with nutrient streams traded back and forth. Later we get to watch rabbits and chickens and goats in space <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> and perhaps poopower provides supplemental lighting. <br /><br />Do you think it's a safe assumption that LED technology, given the electrical power required and a decade or so, will be up to the task of driving the photosynthesis in a high-production hydroponics operation?<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[rocketman5000]

Given the fact that you can tune the wavelength of LEDs, and according to my short search of the internet are most sensitive to blue wavelengths you could minimize the amount of energy needed and optimize the growth rate of the plants<br /><br />I assume it would be a safe assumtion. In fact I think you'd have better luck with LED's than incadecent, or floresent as they have much higher power draw per Candela of light.

 

[j05h]

<i>> Do you think it's a safe assumption that LED technology, given the electrical power required and a decade or so, will be up to the task of driving the photosynthesis in a high-production hydroponics operation? </i><br /><br />Yes, LEDs are almost up to the task of growing crops. It's still several steps more complex than using light tunnels/reflected light. Using LEDs brings up the possibility of not just growing crops, but directing the shape of the plants you grow. I want to make meshes of trees that can survive in vacuum, using an armature with LEDs to direct their growth is one avenue being explored. <br /><br />For bulk crop growth, though, nothing will beat straight sunlight.<br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

I have not seen much of the new Rolls Royce coupe and convertible. However, from the photo I saw, they may get LED headlights. If so, that is one of the brightest applications of LED technology yet. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[rocketman5000]

To get really bright you just need to cluster the diodes.<br /><br />Here is an application of LED floodlights. <br /><br /> LED's <br /><br /><br />they even market a grow light.

 

[MeteorWayne]

Pricey, but a nice concept. When the price drops by half, I'll be a buyer <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[rocketman5000]

I've been watching this company for 2 years almost and the price has remained the same. At current price it is hard to justify, unless I took my floodlights with me when I moved house to house. I mean 20 year bulb life is a little hard for me to fathom...

 

[mrmorris]

<font color="yellow">"I'm trying to keep in mind three modes and it has to be confusing to the reader..."</font><br /><br />And I believe this is in large part where the disconnect comes in. I'm thinking of this in terms of something for NASA to put in at their proposed polar outpost, and stated so at the outset. You're looking at it for a lunar colony. The intents are vastly different. NASA almost assuredly <b>would</b> grow some food plants at their outpost. However, they wouldn't be for consumption, but rather simply to see what is and isn't possible, and how food crops grow differently in low-G situations. <br /><br />I might try to work up some calculations on just how much 'fertilizer' would be produced for various crew sizes at a lunar outpost over time, and try to guestimate algea and methane production. The first half would be easy enough. Unfortunately, I suspect that I'd be making so many WAGs on the second half as to make the result a shot in the dark... with numbers attached. It would be interesting though to see how long it would take to produce methane in useful quantities for propellant.

 

[1cooldaddyo]

Take a look at what they're doing with waste disposal at McMurdo. I imagine some of this could be appliccable to a moon base.<br /><br />http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15834019/page/5/

 

[rocketman5000]

Sorry to dig up old umm.... crap. Interesting little story on Live Science. Suggests novel ways to use the solid mater of manure.<br /><br /> Solid Waste

 

[trailrider]

And if we don't get some IMMEDIATE budget relief (no pun intended...well, maybe a little one), the whole VSE/Orion/Ares program is going to go down the toilet! <img src="/images/icons/frown.gif" /><br /><br />Ad Luna! Ad Ares! Ad Astra!