Two New Studies Pour Water on Wet Mars Theories

[harmonicaman]

AOL article.<br /><br />The studies basically suggest that the evidence found for flowing and standing water on Mars can more logically be explained as resulting from geological activity than water. <br /><br />The studies suggest that this is another nail in the coffin for the life on Mars theorists.

 

[paulanderson]

Additional links and info already in these threads here, including comments from Steve Squyres:<br /><br />http://uplink.space.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=sciastro&Number=411583&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=1&vc=1#Post411583<br /><br />http://uplink.space.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=sciastro&Number=389374&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=2&vc=1<br /><br />Not a nail in the coffin by any means. As Squyres himself points out, the new CU scenarios used old MER data, while most of the newest information from Opportunity was not known or just ignored. There are many features more consistent with groundwater than volcanoes or impacts, see geologist Jon Clarke's comments here:<br /><br />http://uplink.space.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=sciastro&Number=410999&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&vc=1<br /><br />The MER team is also still confident in their analysis.<br />

 

[yevaud]

Simple organisms, perhaps.<br /><br />Complex life? Hardly. Insufficient time for starters.<br /><br />Btw, one of the Mar's caps is a great deal of frozen CO2 as well. The seasonal evaporation and recollection/refreezing process is one reasons we see the seasonal dust storms there. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

a possibility for the numerous fossiized imprints of mass liquid flow is that such liquid flowed under glaciers, as occurs in antarctica. mars may have been in an early ice age, rather, moreso than it already is, and covered with vast areas of pack ice. <br /><br />if my memory is correct, i believe the south polar cap is primarily H20, and the geologic evidence of the outflow patterns is consistent with the directional fossilized erosion and higher elevation of the southern hemisphere. water could plausibly have been flowing under glaciers from the south pole northward. <br /><br />but yeah, standing seas and lakes, probably not. life? that is still anyone's guess. the methane is very mysterious and as is often the case these days, we think we have figured out our local space and we find something extremely anomalous and bizarre. like enceladus.

 

[bonzelite]

i should have said "flow" patterns as opposed to outflow, assuming the sub-glacier water originated from the southern ice pack itself.

 

[JonClarke]

Pressure plus temperature is needed for liquid water. Atmopshreic pressure over nearly half the planet is enough for liquid water, however the temperatures only briefly rise about melting for pure water, much longer for brines. Once in the subsurface the temperatures are too cold for liquid water or even brine, until you get deep enough for geothermal heating to be significant.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[paulanderson]

The search for underground water by MARSIS has <i>barely started</i>, as ESA has said more than once. The conditions will be better suited to start looking again "in-depth" as it were (!), later this winter / spring, and in equatorial regions where there is a better chance of finding it. And also Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, once it gets there, of course.<br /><br />As I mentioned before also, <i>New Scientist</i> reported a few weeks ago that some within the MARSIS team felt that the ice deposit in the buried crater <i>may</i> be at least partially liquid. Just an opinion expressed at this point, but it should not be dismissed, either.<br />

 

[bonzelite]

<font color="yellow"><br />Actually, it's the north polar cap that is mostly water. The south polar cap used to be thought to be mostly CO2, but I think there has been some controversy about this recently, IIRC.</font><br /><br />gotcha <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />what would be depressing is if MRO finds NO liquid water evidence but only subsurface glacier structure. <br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/frown.gif" />

 

[JonClarke]

I can't think of any findings by MRO that w ill be depressing! <br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

yes and no. for pro-liquid people it will be like discovering santa claus isn't a real person. sort of emotionally devastating. <br /><br />for realists, it will just be a matter of continuing discoveries and the uncovering of facts. <br /><br />

 

[mikeemmert]

Hey guys! How soon we forget...<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Pathfinder<br /><br />Remember Sojourner? And where it landed and what it found?<br /><br />Sojourner landed in a flood plain. There was plain evidence of a huge amount of water and of rocks washed into the landing area from hundreds of kilometers away.<br /><br />Let's not forget the photos of Valles Marinaris. Water definitely flowed on the surface of Mars.<br /><br />And the Allen Hills meteorite, with it's chemically pure crystals of magnetite - no nonbiological process can account for these defect-free crystals, but they are easily accounted for by microbes.<br /><br />Life looks pretty grim for the little critters these days, but it would be a big mistake to stop looking for fossils. Who knows? we might even find out that We're Martians! <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />