WHAT ARE WE?

newtonian · Feb 28, 2005

Alpha_Tauri - Thank you for that link. Here is some complimentary information to your link on the Etruscans and their language: "Such was the power of Etruria that its name filled up earths and seas."-Livy, First-Century Historian. WHEN it comes to the Etruscans, you may feel that you do not know even the ABC's of the subject. If, however, the language you speak uses the Latin alphabet, you unknowingly owe some of it to the Etruscans. Were it not for the Etruscans, the Latin alphabet would have begun with a, b, g (like the Greek alpha, beta, gamma or the Hebrew aleph, beth, gimel). Yet, although philologists know that the Etruscan alphabet began with a, b, c, the Etruscan language is still difficult to understand. And this is only one aspect of the Etruscan enigma. Over the centuries historians have speculated on the origins of this most remarkable civilization. At their zenith in the fifth century B.C.E., the Etruscans formed a federation of 12 cities with a far-flung European and North African commercial network. Yet, just four centuries later, they were completely engulfed by the emerging power of Rome. But what do we know about the Etruscans, and why does the mystery live on? Mysterious Origins Historians, archaeologists, and linguists have long mused over the origins of the Etruscans. Did they emigrate from Lydia, a province in Asia Minor, as Herodotus suggested, or were they natives of Italy, as Dionysius of Halicarnassus claimed in the first century B.C.E.? Could it be that they had diverse origins? Whatever the answer, the ethnic and cultural differences between them and neighboring peoples were so great that now we cannot be sure of their beginnings. We do know, however, that from about the eighth century B.C.E., the Etruscans flourished throughout central Italy. The Romans called them Tusci, or Etrusci, and the area occupied by them, between the Arno River in the north and the Tiber River in th

the_masked_squiggy · Feb 28, 2005

I mentioned a Latin word because he already mentioned it. I posted because I took a couple years of Latin and my understanding was that the word he was referencing was translated somewhat differently than he was stating, and in the context became significant. Or at least, somewhat significant. Hebrew and Greek were the sources for the Latin translation, and the first English translation came from the Latin (i.e., the King James Version), IIRC. And as a lot of the translations floating about now stem off from the KJV, it's now important to understand what the Latin terms meant, because so much is lost in the translation into Latin, and then again into English.

the_masked_squiggy · Feb 28, 2005

Depends on who you're asking. Most with an interest in empirical science will say the latter, because of the emphasis on a proof you can experience with your senses. I'm an exception, have a different frame of mind than them (because in the end, doesn't it all come down to a person's frame of mind?) but that doesn't mean I agree completely with everyone who believes the former. I also disagree with Newt on a number of issues. So since our beliefs are somewhat different, our definition of God differs also, albeit not that much. So do we serve the same God or have we created two different ones, being defined in two contradictory frameworks? Or are we both referencing the same entity but our frames of reference are inherently wrong because even as we attempt to define said entity as being "infinite", in the process of definition we place set limitations upon it?

Saiph · Feb 28, 2005

you...make my head hurt. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

jatslo · Feb 28, 2005

You speak of circles, therefore you are strong. A tuff cookie to crack. ---Jatslo

astrophoto · Feb 28, 2005

Much is lost in translation. Hence Chevrolet having trouble selling it's Nova model in Spanish speaking countries...

jatslo · Feb 28, 2005

That would explain why my college is forcing me to take writing classes. ---Jatslo

alpha_taur1 · Feb 28, 2005

I'd like to continue this ancient historical discussion, but I think it may be taken as 'slightly' Off Topic in the Ask the Astronomer thread. Perhaps the open forum ? I'm new to the forum. Are we likely to incur the wrath of the Topic police?

alpha_taur1 · Mar 1, 2005

I have a broad chronology on my website, but it tends to be centred on Italy. http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/chronology.html The problem is that people studying different aspects of this period have different interpretations. The episode with the Sea peoples is interpreted by most as a battle between Rameses III and the Sea People, around 1180 BCE. The Sea People are also referred to as the Pelasgi (much later) by the Greeks, and occasionally the words Pelasgi and Tyrsenoi are interchanged, although the accounts of Homer are mostly legend with a sprinkling of truth. The Sea people are referred to in the inscription at Medinot Habou in the hierogyphs as Plst, Trsh, Shrdn, Dnyn, Wshsh and Shklsh. These inscriptions have been variously interpreted, with Trsh, Shrdn, and Shklsh thought to represent the Tysenoi, Sardinians and Sikeles (a native tribe of Sicily) respectively. Plst is of course the Peleset to whom you refer. Alternatively Trsh has been interpreted as the Trojans. Collectively these make up a motley collection from various parts of the Mediterranean. The link below details the inscriptions at MH. http://www.courses.psu.edu/cams/cams400w_aek11/mhabu.html That particular period - the late second Millennium was a period of great turmoil. We can trace the arrival of tribes from the East with new technology in the form of camels, used for warfare, the earliest siege technology, the fall of the Hittite Empire, the fall of the Mycenaen cities, and Troy (according to legend around 1250BCE). The consequent flux of displaced peoples is often referred to as the volkswanderung. The breakdown of the Hittite empire also destroyed a balance of power between Egypt and the Hittites, which added to the instability. Werner Keller describes a number

alpha_taur1 · Mar 1, 2005

"It is true, however, that the Bible account itself appears to show that Abraham and his descendants were able to converse with the people of Canaan without the need of an interpreter, " Possibly because Akkadian (later Babylonian) was the lingua franca of the Middle East. Most cuneiform tablets that have been found were written in Akkadian. It was probably the language of culture that even wandering nomads used to communicate with each other. Akkadian (and earlier Sumerian tablets) have also been found in Egypt.

newtonian · Mar 1, 2005

Alpha_Tauri - Thank you for your informative research tangents. As to your concern about the moderators wrath: First, the moderators are moderate here, but they do, of course, prefer extended tangents from astronomy be treated in Free Space. However, if we can stress the relevance of the tangent to thread theme and astronomy, they are likely to allow it. Which is why I am now posting this segway: Human language is unique among earth's life forms, as I have posted above, and is an integral part of what we are. Human languages are likely different from languages of extraterrestrial intelligent life forms, as astronomers realize - which is why messages included in probes are made deliberately to lend to easier translation by extraterrestrial life who may encounter these probes. The Bible also refers to tongues [may be plural only as an addition to human plural languages], or languages, of angels, which are posited to be extraterrestrial life. And I am interested in anyone who posts on this thread relevant to astronomy and also thread theme. I also like tangents, as do many other posters on this forum who post tangents on threads.

newtonian · Mar 1, 2005

Alpha_Tauri - Thank you for broadening my vocabulary. For those who, like me, were unfamiliar with the word Autochthonous, here is some definition from dictionary.com: 1. Originating where found; indigenous: Well, yes. - except the geographical location may have migrated, as the group of people migrated, from the point of origin. However, note the evidence I posted for certain things that are common to other peoples. These things that are in common are too much for coincidence, or parallel evolution - would you agree? Those are, of course, not word derivations. I suspect Etruscan language may have started at Babel. A study of the gods and doctrines of many religions ancient and modern show the same or very similar gods and doctrines but with different language names. Some of these differences may have been derived gradually through evolution of languages. However, I suspect Etruscan language was more of a direct creation - which seems to be your conclusion also.

alpha_taur1 · Mar 1, 2005

"A study of the gods and doctrines of many religions ancient and modern show the same or very similar gods and doctrines but with different language names. Some of these differences may have been derived gradually through evolution of languages." I don't want to get drawn into a religious debate. My position is as a small 'a' agnostic. I respect the religious beliefs of a number of different religions, and I don't necessarily think that my lack of answer is so conclusive that I should try to convince others of the validity of my stance. I find pure atheism more difficult to justify than theism, but that's one area I prefer to avoid. The answer to your comment is very complex. The point is that no civilisation in the history of the world has ever lived in splendid isolation, otherwise they would not have become rich enough to become civilisations in the first part. I always compare the Etruscans to the modern day Americans. They are also a blend of cultures and are formed by a blend of immigrant cultures. Some of the deity names are probably original in Etruscan. The iconography is variable with time. During the Hellenistic, they adopted Hellenistic iconography, with an example of Charon (Charun) being depicted as a ferryman in later times, as opposed to a gatekeeper with a large hammer. Traces of the most ancient Etruscan religion lived on in Roman days with the household genii, or Lares. If you check my site under Etruscan religion, you'll find a much more detailed treatment. Like Etruscan religion, Roman religion was extremely malleable, and susceptible to external influence. Statues of the deities from regions conquered by the Romans were often brought home to Rome. I'll answer that more fully as time permits. The answer is very complex. Religions indeed had common themes, but in many cases, these were due to later influences.

newtonian · Mar 6, 2005

Alpha_Tauri - Of course, you can research religious doctrines in a purely academic manner independent of your personal beliefs. Note my next post on a science channel program on Etruscans, btw. Religion does make humans unique among species on earth. Some doctrines and symbols common to many religions included: 1. Immortality of soul (vs. mortal soul in Bible - e.g. Ezekiel 18:4,20). 2. Hell Fire (vs. unconscious at death - Ecclesiastes 9:5,10) 3. Trinities of gods (vs. one God - Deuteronomy 6:4) 4. Religious images, notably the cross (vs. no religious images - Exodus 20:4) There are many other examples. In modern day Christendom many doctrines and observances come from the adoption in the Roman empire of beliefs and practices of the peoples in their empire - in an effort to unify the empire. A couple of the many examples: Astarte - Ishtar - Eostre to Easter is an example, plus the rabbit and egg as symbols of fertility related to the goddess of fertility December 25th (Christmas) and the Roman Saturnalia (sun worship). Various crosses (many still used in the Catholic church - see the Catholic Encyclopedia) with varied origins radiating back to the tau cross from the T in Tammuz in Babylon, compare the crux ansata in ancient Egypt. (vs. the simple stake, not worshipped, in the Bible equivalent to the overlapping definition of the Greek words xylon and stauros (compare latin crux simplex) and the Hebrew ets - see Galatians 3:13 (Greek) quoting Deuteronomy 21:23 (Hebrew) for an example. Etc. I am interested in any connections that can be traced back to before the Romans to the Etruscans. BTW - my faith is sometimes called primitive Christianity as we endeavor to remove things added after Jesus' time from the various ancient religions. This need not involve debate; and the other side is that these pagan festilvals were sanct

newtonian · Mar 6, 2005

Alpha_Tauri - Today on the science channel is a repeating broadcast on the Etruscans. I watched part of the 4 AM (CST) broadcast. Here are a few tidbits - but I missed part of it: Science Channel (DirecTV # 284) 4 AM 3/6/05 repeating, entitled Enigma of the Etruscans Recorded by Science channel in 2004. An expedition locates an Etruscan shipwreck off the coast of Southern France. Left Pyrgi of Caere, to a major port that was originally part of a lagoon in Gaul.named Latte. .First Etruscans, then Marseille, then Itallians. Late 6th or early 5th century BCE (BC)... Professor Dominiqu Garcia quoted - spread wine throughout Gaul. Michael Dietler also quoted. 8/11/2001 hull of ship found, many more that the original 250 Ankara?s are found, over 20 meters long, 7 meters wide. Tom Rasmussen quoted.. By 1st century empire disappears. Some other points gleaned: Women were more equal to men than in other cultures; one was not just son of a Father, but also of a mother. Etruscan language not yet deciphered - exception: proper names. Many things thought to originate with the Romans were present earlier with the Etruscans.. 30 ton cargo. Etc.

alpha_taur1 · Mar 6, 2005

Newtonian, Not bad. The media usually makes a few mistakes. Actually we know more about Etruscan language than we know about Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics. We can read a great deal of the language - a lot more than just names. We even know quite a bit of the grammar. I have been following the Cap D'Antibes shipwreck with great interest, and I know that Etruscan wine spread throughout Europe. In fact that was cited as a major reason for the invasion of the Senonine Gauls around 390 BCE. RE: Marseilles - Massilia was established by the Phocaean Greeks, not by the Etruscans, but the Etruscan actively traded with Massilia and set up emporiae in the Port. Amphora is the correct spelling. Here is an article that I wrote about amphorae: http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/sea.html#amphora1 -and here is another description of amphorae showing how they fit in context with other Greco-Etruscan ceramics: http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/art/pottery.html#amphora "Women were more equal to men than in other cultures; one was not just son of a Father, but also of a mother." Yes - Etruscan women retained their own names. They were also literate, and politically active. You wanted some carried over traditions from the Etruscans? I'll try to make a list. The Censer which is swung in Catholic churches with burning incense is Etruscan. So is the purple clothing worn by certain clergymen. The Bishop's mitre (the pointed hat) was first worn by Etruscan haruspices. The Bishop's staff was also Etruscan. Incidentally I mentioned that Etruscan priests observed lightning. They also observed bird flight and made observations based on which sector the bird flew into etc. I have attached a picture of an Etruscan priest at the

alpha_taur1 · Mar 6, 2005

Etruscan priests a couple of images:

alpha_taur1 · Mar 6, 2005

Here is some Etruscan iconography showing Tinia and Thalna. You can see some resemblance to Christian iconography. Thalna was the mistress of Tinia. Occasionally she replaces Uni in the trinity. Maybe I'd better stop there before I get too carried away. http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/tinia.html

alpha_taur1 · Mar 6, 2005

Thanks for your interest, Steve. Yes Toscana or Tuscany is the homeland of the Etruscans. The Greek derived name is Tyrrhenians (from Tyrsenoi), and that's where the name of the Tyrrhenian Sea to the West of Italy comes from. Aspects of the Italian dialect in Tuscany is said to have its origins in Etruria. Particularly the aspiration of the hard C sound in xoxa xola as opposed to Cocal Cola. People have speculated all sorts of things about their origins, but there is a continuous record going from at least the 10th century BCE which shows how the civilisation emerged through contact and trade with other nations. Some have said that Etruscan is a corruption in Latin of Ex Troius, or from Troy. The Etruscans certainly used the Trojan mythology with some rather unique variations in many of their grave goods and murals.

newtonian · Mar 9, 2005

Alpha_Tauri - Yes, the broadcast seemed a little inaccurate on that only translating names statement. You can't just assume what is broadcast or written is accurate and/or up to date. Amphora - thanks for the spelling. I was going by phonetics with my bad hearing - TV does not usually spell the words! I guess I should try the captioning option if it exists for these broadcasts! On derivations of symbols, how about the church spire and/or phallic worship? I will now check out your site!

just_curious · Mar 9, 2005

Being in God'simage involves our having qualities God has such as: Unfortunately this must also mean: 1) Drowning off all your "children" but on and his family because he is your favorite. 2) Allowing slavery 3) Giving your children into slavery 4) Testing faith of your child by seeing if he would kill his own son to prove it. 5) Providing an unsafe home for your children full of horrible disasters and catastrophes. 6) Witnessing the death of your children and just standing by doing nothing. 7) Creating mankind while knowing that one day they will make you so pissed off that you will kill them all but a few. 8) Not being willing to sacrifice yourself to save them, but sending your own son in your place. So what are we? We are nothing more than another species made up of chemicals. We will live, instinctively try like hell to reproduce(most of us at least) and we will die and decompose. The cycle will continue untill we destroy ourselves or some other event does so. We somehow became intelligent enough to question our existence and tell others our thoughts, and many times when people didn't know the answers they made up goofy stories about gods. Then they killed those that didn't believe thier beliefs. We are a species that wages war for riches and consumes the earth without thought of consequences. If there is a god he/she surely isn't a very nice being and if we are to be made in his image we are quite unfortunate. Maybe god is nothing more than a locust, that will kill his family to be able to drive the nicest SUV. Go figure

alpha_taur1 · Mar 9, 2005

"We are nothing more than another species made up of chemicals. " You need to think slightly deeper. I have already stated my religious beliefs as a small 'a' agnostic. That means that I don't know. It's maybe considered not very cool to 'not know', but that's where I am in my journey. Think about what you are. Think about what you feel. Do you have attractions to other human beings? (female and male perhaps in different ways) and also say feelings of care towards your children or siblings (if you have any). Do you feel that it is nice (neat) to have plants and animals? In short, do you feel an affinity with other life-forms? If you saw another person in a life threatening situation in which you could easily help, would you? Why do you think that is? What about the first question - Can you define yourself as just matter and chemicals. What about the fact that the matter that makes up our bodies is almost completely changed over every 8 years or so. Every human being, and every living organism assimilates the air for respiration and the nutrients that we consume. You don't have the same set of atoms that you had 8 years ago. If your material composition stayed the same, you would be dead. If we are material in composition, then that matter is being re-used and re-assembled continuously by other living organisms in some cases. In material terms, there is a constant reincarnation. For sentient living organisms such as ourselves, that process is awesome. I think that some animals also think that life is awesome. I think that dogs, having cohabited with humans for 15,000 years plus, have a great many human attributes. Anyone who has a dog will think the same. We are not chemical automatons. Think about these processes a bit longer, and perhaps some day, you may also reach the conclusion that you 'just don't know' if it's all just chemical reaction. Maybe you'll go further than not knowing. Some peo

just_curious · Mar 10, 2005

I obviously don't know, but I can still disbelieve based on my own observations. If someone told me they had a pink elephant, maybe they do, but based on what I know and have seen I wouldn't believe them. Of course I could say show me and perhaps they could do so and and prove me wrong. This is not the case with devine beings though. The only proof of them is always offered in terms of mystery or signs or the good old "faith" thing. This is why religion and science do not mix. There are no tests that can be done to prove or disprove ones beleif in a higher power. Then again no test can be done to prove the big bang theory, but that is why it is a theory. Do I beleive it? It sounds good but judging from man's past mistakes I'd have to say it probably isn't how it went down. Just as judging from all the past thousands of gods mankind has had, that they now seem to have found the real one. I find it strange that people today would rather side with the logic of a caveman on the beginning of our universe and life, than that of the scientific community that poses questions and performs tests or looks for substantial evidence to support their theories. Again, I don't have the answer, but I really don't think that a caveman did either. To think slightly deeper, these chemicals that make us up are nothing more than smaller bits of matter or energy. On the grand scale of things, we are very much as you described. We have feelings, thoughts and many other facets that make us human, but thta doesn't negate the fact that we are nothing more than bits of matter or energy in universe we barely understand. Do these human traits make us better or more supreme than other life. I think not. They are nothing more than traits derived to help us survive. Even the creation of gods to give our lives meaning can be seen as a way to increase our chance of survival, so that we can reproduce and keep the cycle going. Many people feel without a god and

alpha_taur1 · Mar 10, 2005

It's interesting to debate this subject without religious baggage. I too will go on in life without a 'god' for the meantime, and I'm perfectly happy in that state. "I find it strange that people today would rather side with the logic of a caveman on the beginning of our universe and life" I think that most religions are evolving, at least in terms of interpretation. The belief in a religion is something that is very personal, and I have enough doubt of pure atheism myself that I can respect the beliefs of others. There are hints that you can catch that there is an overlying organisation to all this. The 'religion' that interests me most is Buddhism. (I'm interested in most religions too.) There are glimpses of understanding in the Buddhist cosmology that ring true. We can only make judgements based on our perception. Everyone has a subtly different perception of life. To some extent we are still cavemen. Some of us have just developed rather sophisticated tools, that's all. I was brought up in a traditional Church background, and if anything, that has biased me against religion, because religion is not about rote learning and chanting words of praise. It's much more personal and individual than that when it comes to perception of the meaning of the cosmos and life. You know the ancient Greeks believed that Gaia was born from Chaos. In an allegorical way, that's still what we believe today. Matter condensed from energy. Out of matter sprung life, at least in our corner of the cosmos, and out of life sprung a self awareness - a sentience. We may not be alone in the universe in that respect, but we just don't know yet. So in terms of entropy (measure of disorder), we know that the entropy of the universe is increasing, whereas the universe sprung into being (I'm avoiding using the c word in the passive case) through increased order. Sentient life is arguably the most ordered state of matter. It is in

just_curious · Mar 11, 2005

I would agree that science doesn't have all the answers and because things are so complicated we will probably never will. Evolution of religion has been occuring since its creation. The reason the church never wanted anyone but them to have bibles is because they were afraid of people's individual thoughts and interpretations. This evolution is why you still have so many religious beliefs today, from crystals to catholics to muslims and so on. By the way I didn't mean to sound as if "I knew". Perhaps I should have started my first post with " I believe we are... ".

WHAT ARE WE?

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