What heppens when 2 black holes collide?

pyoko · Oct 9, 2005

What happens when 2 or more black holes collide? Do they destroy each other, or do they form a sum that is the mass of the masses combined? Would the black hole's 'surface' be distorted by the immediate proximity of another black hole? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -pyoko the duck It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. </div>

bonzelite · Oct 9, 2005

well. let's have fun with this and pretend that black holes actually exist (LOL!). so, ok. i will temporarily suspend my disbelief, as the proposal is pretty cool to visualize, and has lots of leg room for creativity: i will assume that the black holes will infinitely approach each other at the event horizons, becoming a binary hole, locked in an asymptotic orbit of collisioin about the other. forever. never quite merging, but infinitely trying to. for that matter, one could imagine a lattice work, as in a molecular chain model, of black holes, creating a sort of filamentous fabric of singularities.

the_masked_squiggy · Oct 10, 2005

Interesting theory. But why asymptotic? What is there that would keep the black holes apart? Could something actually force its way between them and forever separate them? And are you saying that the event horizons would get infinitely close to each other, or the singularities themselves??

bonzelite · Oct 10, 2005

squiggy, yes. you are seeing my fantasy point: the force that keeps them forever apart is each event horizon's inability to overcome the other. essentially the holes would go into orbit around each other, falling perpetually inward but never merging. it would become a binary hole spinning about a common asymptote. there is a vogue theory suggesting light cannot actually enter the event horizon, but instead perpetually falls into it without ever going in. the light could even go into orbit around the "hole." this mechanism is supposedly what creates the galactic "spin" and spiral arm, whirlpool structure (which in reality i find highly unlikely). so, then, feeding the fantasy, as light cannot really enter the event horizon, neither can another event horizon. were they to even exist, there is nothing keeping multiple black holes from creating a filament-like network throughout a gigantic region of space, light years deep. in fact, there could just as well be a subdividing of black holes into others, as in mitosis. this fission process could render other big bangs, funneling the ejected matter into a parallel fabric, *simultaneously* as it "implodes" upon itself in THIS universe. in this vein, we are seeing only, from our perception, the "anti explosion" or "negative space" side of the "glove." --- is the glove the space inside that you put your hand into? or is the glove the outer surface area, covering and hiding your hand? there is nothing keeping a lone black hole "model" from staying "alone." the person who suggested this thread is pretty creative. i appreciate that and give them props. it is very mind-bending.

yevaud · Oct 10, 2005

That scenario is directly out of the Star Trek book, "Federation," where it's described fairly well. It's fiction, sure, but as descriptives go, it's well done. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

bonzelite · Oct 10, 2005

i had no idea. i'm not into star trek. cool! i'm a visual artist and writer, however. so remember i'm coming from that vantage point.

yevaud · Oct 10, 2005

Yeah, interesting concept. In that particular book, in fact, it describes a triplet of closely linked, rapidly orbiting singularities. As I'd said, fiction, but well written. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

bonzelite · Oct 10, 2005

now to step this up, let us start simply: 3 singularities in orbit about each other --would they be in a haphazard sort of tumbling dance, with no orbit of the 3 ever being the same; or would they be symmetrically arranged, forming a ring? and would a grid of singularities create a similar effect as like-pole repulsion? creating a sort of grid stasis? or woud an entire grid of them be in a wiggly knotted array of infinitely changing orbits about the adjacent black holes? and would this be a basis for fractal structures?

Saiph · Oct 11, 2005

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />event horizon's inability to overcome the other eh? It's a region equal potential, there isn't anything to overcome. If you put more gravity in the region, it just shifts. It is not a physical barrier, merely a location in space where gravity is a certain strength. As for things falling in vs not falling in, that's a classic exercise in reference frames, in both special and general relativity. There's plenty of material out there if you want to read up on it.</blockquote> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

bonzelite · Oct 11, 2005

then we're playing a semantic game. i am talking about the tidal forces between the two black holes as they enter beyond the point of no return, beyond zero velocity at infinity. the premise is deliberate collision of the holes, ie, they fall into each other. or fall around each other. so we are going to violate the "equal potential." apparently, there is an orbital instability farther in than "2 or 3 Schwartzchild radii" -- outside this distance, you could do a TCM burn and be away from the "death star tractor beam." you'd be in orbit around a region of nothingness, of infinite compaction and light distortion --like a gigantic wide-angle lens that is infinitely wide, allowing the viewer to see the back of his own body, as well as the front, in an impossible vista of optical replication. again and again. like mirrors in the public bathroom: you see yourself forever. so we are going into the hole with another hole -very lesbian. two females cannot copulate. so they must remain exterior to each other's gender. never merging, despite how asymptotically near they want to press together. i don't know, then, if they'd ever able to reach each other's singularities. they would not get that far. i think as each hole became nearer and nearer the other's Schwartzchild surfaces, the more each would fall into the other, not quite ever falling into each other's singularity. or, maybe, they would endeavor to reach each other's singularities, each simultaneously falling literally into the other, paradoxically swallowing each other.

Saiph · Oct 11, 2005

...i'm going to ignore the gender comment...it's crude, and irrelevant. Now, as for if the singularities ever merge...it doesn't really matter, We can't see them, we can only see the event horizons, and there is no reason those can't merge. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

frobozz · Oct 11, 2005

I /believe/ (I cannot prove this, so please don't repeat it as fact because I told you so) that in fact if you tried to have a "grid" of blackholes in this way, then it most likel have chaotic orbits. In fact, as it would be essentially be a version of the n-body problem (each black hole is a body, obeying the laws of gravity etc etc) then the potential for chaotic behaviour certainly exists. If indeed it is chaotic, then yes it could very well be a basic for a fractel - most likely in the form of a strange attractor. Again, I cannot confess to understand such a system well enough to give a definitive answer. What would be interesting is an attempt to detect such a system. My hypothesis is that as these black holes circle one another, the shape of the event horizon would also change in a continous manner. The problem with observing such a thing would be time dilation. From our frame of reference, the orbits would be "slowed down" to the point that we would barely notice the change, if it all. So, to find such a thing would take many, many years of data - quite likely more then we currently have.

bonzelite · Oct 11, 2005

i would assume that if the gravitational radii of the black holes were to merge, then, at the event horizons, would they not attempt, since we are now past the point of getting out, to approach each other's singularities as well? by this point they are locked into each other's tidal forces. would the opposing tidal forces keep each black hole orbiting the other? would a gravitationally smaller hole be eaten by a gravitationally larger one, then, creating a larger, single hole, as suggested by one of the first posters? ------------------------ the thing is, in order to cross the event horizon to the singularity, you cross the moment when light and escape velocity are equal. so farther in, whatever is falling in, must be accelerated beyond light speed as it approaches the singularity within, the interior side, of the event horizon --as you must overcome this speed to exit the event horizon, which you cannot. but another black hole could, as such an object, in it's entirety, would possess the quality of beyond light speed ability, thence the ability to escape from ANOTHER black hole's event horizon. this is why i think two holes would asymptotically, simultaneously, approach and escape from each other. subsequently, the actual geometric moment-area of such a canellation would be irresolute. ------------------------ as a footnote, the mass of such a region of gravity, ie the black hole, would have no properties of any elements, as it would not subscribe to any known substance. it would not be metallic. or gaseous. or anything. it would be a generic state of density having no identity other than mass and gravity --an abstraction.

majornature · Oct 11, 2005

I think when two black holes collide, it will eventually vaporize. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> We are born. We live. We experiment. We rot. We die. and the whole process starts all over again! Imagine That! <img id="6e5c6b4c-0657-47dd-9476-1fbb47938264" style="width:176px;height:247px" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/14/4/6e5c6b4c-0657-47dd-9476-1fbb47938264.Large.jpg" alt="blog post photo" width="276" height="440" /> </div>

raghara2 · Oct 11, 2005

Big explosion. And things from inside would have much easier access to outside. In 14000 million of years this galaxy could find it. Inside of central region are two VERY massive objects, so...

bonzelite · Oct 11, 2005

hmm. these are interesting ideas. i don't see how they could explode, though. an explosion would need to assume beyond light speed acceleration in order to physically happen. but who knows really.

jatslo · Oct 12, 2005

if they'd ever able to reach each other's singularities The low pressure points would likely rip each other to pieces; gradually losing mass in the collision, in which survival of the fittest rains supreme. Seriously, are we talking about equal masses or unequal masses, because a larger mass will surely eat the smaller mass, and equal masses would essentially beat the crap out of each other without a clear winner. In any event, we should be able to see them feeding and fighting.

rodrunner79 · Oct 12, 2005

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />What heppens when 2 black holes collide?<hr /></blockquote> You get a threesome.

bonzelite · Oct 12, 2005

"Yes; the event horizons combine, and the end result is a hole equal to the mass of the two holes combined minus the mass/energy radiated away during the merger. Here is a simulation of the merger of the event horizons. Inside the event horizons all paths are supposed to intersect the singularity eventually - I presume that means that the singularities fall into each other." and as they fall into each other, they also repel each other, as each singularity vies for this "infinite" gravity well situation. they go into repulsive orbit about each other. as a (+) to (+) charge state would. the thing keeping them bound would be each other's gravitational fields at the event horizons. the thing keeping them repelled would be each singularity. one would try to overcome the other, asymptotically never doing so. and it may not matter how more massive one of them is, as, at the singularities, mass no longer matters --all that matters is the infinite draw of the singularity, ie, singularities cannot discern between different states of infinity. they orbit each other.

nojocujo · Oct 23, 2005

The orbits would give you gravitational waves but the combination of the two gravitational potentials would give you several very large waves giving you spikes in the grb's. The GRB/XRF being associtated with the cancelation of the schwartzchild radius as the wave passes and there are energy spikes associated with the gravitational potential attempting to establish equilibrium. BTY who is responsible for the theory?

bonzelite · Oct 24, 2005

which theory?

cpuguy1 · Oct 26, 2005

They implode. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> The polarization of the alpha wave's primary phase of the modified parallel cross section of your brain will confirm you are not thinking up to your potential. - Professor West </div>

nojocujo · Oct 26, 2005

This theory: Gamma ray bursts off the scale, X-rays and possibly, if the theory is right, a high amplitude train of gravity waves, which would separate most molecules' atoms by a few atomic radii, if one were close enough. Not nice. The one predicting the GRB, XRF and the hign amplitude gravitational waves that would flatten spacetime and don't forget the redshift.

nojocujo · Oct 27, 2005

I found it the Swift/Chandra observation of a short GRB.

What heppens when 2 black holes collide?

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