What would your dream Martian robot rover be like?

[willpittenger]

* Where would you land it? If you would send more than one lander, state one site per lander. If you would prefer to wait until you reach orbit to pick a site from a candiate list (like what happened with Viking), please state that and suggest some candidates.<br /><br />* What type of landing (airbags, rockets, etc) would you recommend for that mission and site?<br /><br />* Would you go with legs, wheels, tracks, or an aircraft? (I remember the Soviets talking about a "lander" that used a balloon. At night, the balloon would cool off and settle to the ground. During the day, it would heat back up. This qualifies. An aircraft might not be a true "lander" or "rover," but for the sake of argument, let's include them. Besides, an aircraft could help a rover out by letting the planners look farther ahead.)<br /><br />* What science instruments would you include?<br /><br />* Would your rover or lander mainly go to prove technology (like Mars Pathfinder/Sojourner) or for real science (like Spirit and Opportunity)?<br />--<br />Who knows, perhaps a real vehicle will be built based on your suggestions. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[3488]

Rovers definately, with large wheels, so it can negotiate large rocks & cover a lot of ground in relatively short time & minimal effort. <br /><br />Really the Spirit & Opportunity Rovers are about as good as it gets IMO. The only changes I would make to them are, greater zoom capability to bring features on the horizon closer, & perhaps a more powerful transmitter to increase data return. I think really that is all. I would also like to see further Mars based Astronomy to happen, so the cameras like those on Spirit & Opportunity can make night time observations too.<br /><br />The Viking Landers IMO were actually not for behind the Rovers. True they used 1970s technology, but the images from the surface were of an extremely high quality & they carried a wide range of surface instrumentation. <br /><br />Both Vilikng & the Rovers still have plances in futre martian exploration. Perhaps the Viking 3 lander in the Smithsonian museum, should be prepared for a mission, to land somewhere that would not be condusive for a rover, perhaps the summit caldera of one of the huge volcanoes.<br /><br />The test bed MER C at JPL could be made flight ready & sent to Melas Chasma or Ma'adim Vallis.<br /><br />I will return to this when I have given it more thought. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[jhoblik]

We need mass productionWe need mass “production” of rovers like Spirit&Oportunity. To lower price per rover. <br />And reasonable upgrade of science tools.<br />First thing I will change, add nuclear battery. It will increase power supply, more mobility, but keep solar panel too. <br />Design device to brush solar panels.<br />

 

[JonClarke]

Interesting question!<br /><br />Landing system: precision guidance with 10 km radius or better landing ellipse and hazard avoidance. Deadbeat airbads for landing. Capable of landing at altitudes of up to 3 km above datum.<br /><br />Mobility - MER style rocker bogie<br /><br />Navigation - autonomous, capable of up to 500 m per day.<br /><br />Power system - High efficiency (30%) solar cells capable of supporting year round operation up to 40 degrees N & S.<br /><br />Science - multispectral stereo camera (Pancam), mass spectrometer, gamma ray spectrometer, multi-spectral IR spectometer, APX, XRD, organic chemistry detector, neutron detector, UV detector, Lidar, meteorology package, RAT, small backhoe capable of digging to 30 cm, sampling tool.<br /><br />In other words, something very much like ExoMars. <br /><br />Where would I send it? As supreme dictactor I would authorise a fleet of 10 of these. In no particular order, these would go to:<br /><br />1. Elysium - recent ice?<br />2. Athabasca vallis - recent floods and volcanism?<br />3. Mawth Vallis - clays<br />4. Melas Chasma - canyon floor deposits<br />5. Nilli pateria - range of fresh and weathered volcanics<br />6. Gale crater - thick sediment pile<br />7. Eberswalde crater - fossil delta<br />8. Aram Chaos - complex water-related landforms<br />9. Dao Vallis - glaciers, sapping valleys<br />10. Deuteronilus Mensae - northern lowlands, residual deposits<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Perhaps the Viking 3 lander in the Smithsonian museum, should be prepared for a mission, to land somewhere that would not be condusive for a rover, perhaps the summit caldera of one of the huge volcanoes.[/qoute]<br />I have heard that it is generally cheaper to build a new probe than to refurbish one that never flew. Besides, today's tech would put the same capabilities in a smaller lander. Perhaps even small enough to be a rover.</p></blockquote> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

Interesting. Would you change each rover based on where it was going? Also, what would you be looking for? Water? Lifeforms? Permafrost? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[mental_avenger]

We need a rover that has far greater capabilities than anything even currently planned. If we are going to make the preparations necessary to send men to Mars, we need to send up some really serious equipment. Big Al is my vision of an SUV sized exploration rover. It would be capable of taking core samples down to at least 30 feet and be able to analyze the contents of the cores in detail on board. It would be able to set seismic transducers, create significant seismic vibrations, and record seismic waves. Big Al would also be able to traverse open ground at about 40mph, using AI and multiple sensors to move safely and autonomously across the surface of Mars.<br /><br />Big Al would be nuclear powered. The drive mechanism would be eight wheel drive, with individual electric motors for each wheel. For simplicity and reliability it would be a skid-steer design.<br /><br /> Big Al could do in a few weeks what current rovers do poorly in a year, and do it more completely and comprehensibly. In addition, they would be useful workhorses when men finally begin to colonize Mars.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p style="margin-top:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2" color="#ff0000"><strong>Our Solar System must be passing through a Non Sequitur area of space.</strong></font></p> </div>

 

[yoda9999]

How about a balloon probe or glider that stays in the air for a long time with lots of cameras? Can make a movie while flying through the Valles Marineris, or a movie flying over Olympus Mons. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[JonClarke]

I would use a standard design and long production run to reduce costs.<br /><br />I would be looking for all the things you suggest, although equatorward of 40 degrees there isn't likely ot be much permafrost.<br /><br />I would also develop at RTG-powered B design for high latiude areas - above 40 degrees north and south up to 80. Targets could include:<br /><br />1 N polar layereds terrain<br />2 S polar layered terrain<br />3 Argyre basin<br />4 Helas basin<br />5 Korolov crater<br />6 Acidalia<br />7 margins of N polar cap<br />8 margins of S polar cap<br />9 Newton crater gullies<br />10. Chasma Borealis <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[yoda9999]

Can we fly like a Goodyear blimp on Mars? Have it stay in the air for several years, fly over the entire Mars surface, and take videos of all the landscapes? It can also do weather experiments, find a good place for Mars settlement.

 

[mental_avenger]

The atmosphere on Mars is very thin, but the winds can reach 200 mph. Those conditions do not favor balloons. Gliders do not stay in the air very long, they are not intended to. However, sailplanes are. But sailplanes would have even more trouble with the light Martian atmosphere and possible high winds. I doubt that we could build a balloon or sailplane that could get above Olympus Mons. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p style="margin-top:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2" color="#ff0000"><strong>Our Solar System must be passing through a Non Sequitur area of space.</strong></font></p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

I would not expect any camera that an glider could carry would take pictures any more useful than those taken by HI-RES. Perhaps if the aircraft is big enough to carry a human... As is, I suspect any aircraft would have to be able to land and take off again. That means some sort of propulsion system is needed. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[no_way]

Most versatile would be Honda's ASIMO with several toolcases for geologist, microbiologists work etc.<br />Power requirements might become a bit of a problem, though, so he might need a wheeled base station with recharge unit to drive around in.<br />From there on, everything would be up to programming. <br /><br />If you had two humanoids capable of repairing eachother, powered by solar panels, they could last indefinitely and do practically everything that humans could, given programming and resupplies from earth.<br />Of course, ASIMO isnt quite that flexible yet, but its getting there.

 

[willpittenger]

Most Geologists would probably tell you there is nothing like seeing something firsthand. So they would probably disagree with you statement that a system like ASIMO would "do practically everything that humans could." In fact, I have seen such statements in this forum. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

ASIMO's a toy. Something like robonaut on a wheeled chassis would be a better bet, but to work to its best advantage it would need to be teleoperated from Mars orbit, which is stretching the definition of a robot mission.<br /><br />And yes, this geologist would definitely prefer to be there in person <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

Legs in general start to become advantagous in certain types of terrain. For instance, on really steep terrain that is mostly solid rock, legs direct all the force into a single point per leg. You can also direct that force precisely. However, ASIMO was never shown, to my knowledge, as a truly automonous system -- even though it supposedly has that capability. Besides, its legs were only designed for stairs in mind. When I talk about legs on a Martian rover, I usually picture a spider-like leg. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

You are right about ASIMO. It worked only in a laboratory and did nothing useful beyond move. It was very heavy and power hungry to boot.<br /><br />"Two legs bad, four l(or more) legs good!" would be a good motor for planetary rovers. <br /><br />But wheels are good enough for 99% of the places you would want to go. Legs are hard from and engineering point of view.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[rogers_buck]

<br />Whatever the next lander looks like I just want to say one thing - DON"T LEAVE OUT THE FRIGGEN MICROPHONE!!!<br />

 

[yoda9999]

Why can't they put a high quality video camera on a Mars rover for some movie quality frame rate? Would it consume too much power?

 

[JonClarke]

It's a matter of power and band width. The next rover, MSL, should be able to do this. Remember that movies are mainly cool value, (dust devil research apart) they are not likely to teach us anything that time lapse imagery will not.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[no_way]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>You are right about ASIMO. It worked only in a laboratory and did nothing useful beyond move.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Honda definitely does not agree. Read up a bit:<br />http://www.plyojump.com/asimo.html<br /><br />I'd say serving coffee is a very small step, but its useful nonetheless. And its continuously evolving. The main point about humanoids is : there is no fundamental reason why it cant physically perform all the operations that humans could in a short while.<br />There are other, cheaper versions of Asimo-like robots being developed all over the asia, Korean HUBO for instance:<br />http://ohzlab.kaist.ac.kr/<br /><br />HRP-1 actually has operated heavy machinery before:<br />http://www.plyojump.com/hrp.html<br />( scroll all the way to the bottom )<br />Theres also an old video on the page of HRP assisting in building construction. Clumsily, as of then, but its doing it. Its an old video TBH<br /><br />And the bots are sufficiently autonomous, they dont need precise teleoperation. High-level preprogramming for a few minutes at a time is enough ( i.e. go there, pick up rock, drill )

 

[3488]

Future Martian exploration must include a peivce of everything.<br /><br />The reason why I suggested the Viking 3 lander in the Smithsonian is because:<br /><br />1). We know that from Vikings 1 & 2, that they were robust, use relatively simple, but effective technology & had seismometers (although they did not work properly, but can be remedied).<br /><br />2). They took gret images of the landscapes (Chryse Planitia & Utopia Planitia).<br /><br />3). The summit caldera of one of the gient volcanoes will teach us somethingabout the thermal history of Mars. Thje Viking landers if need be, could have acheived high altitude sites (which Pathfinder & the MERs could not do). <br /><br />Landers & Rovers need to cover various landing sites, pole to pole. Simple as that. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

They were useful research platforms but would not be useful for actual exploration.<br /><br />You don't need a bipedal robot to explore Mars, you gain nothing by it. As for following instructions for drill, examine a rock, the MERs do this already.<br /><br />However, teleoperation is much faster than even the best semi autonmous robot. Over 30 years ago the Lunakhods, which were directly teloperated rovers with twice the science payload of the MERs were exploring the Moon more 10 times faster than the semi-autonomous MERs can on Mars even with the advantage of three decades of progress in robotics. A robot with a human in the loop is vastly faster, more flexible, and more effective than a machine on its own. But as I said, when we consider teleoperated rovers on Mars trhis would require a himan crew in Mars orbit and is therefore no longer a pure robotic mission.<br /><br />Jon<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[no_way]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>You don't need a bipedal robot to explore Mars, you gain nothing by it.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote> With sufficiently advanced humanoid, you gain the flexibility of human. If they were advanced to a point ( they arent, as of now ) where two can perform maintenance and repairs on eachother, you will have a completely universal setup capable of lasting basically forever given adequate resupplies, and performing all the tasks that humans could. How's that not gaining you anything ? Higher-level human teleassistance and decision-making can still be in the loop like it currently is for MERs as well, except MERs have very little autonomy. Really useful autonomy would involve autonomous operation times of several multiplies of signal roundtrip time.

 

[j05h]

My dream rover, quickly: an inflatable ball like those tested at JPL, propelled across the landscape by a sun-light heated balloon. The tether between them is partly composed (@ balloon end) of a Planetary Society "Mars Snake" sensor. The whole system rolls/kites across the landscape in the day and does spectral work at night. Balloon provides context imagery to ball's local images. Delivery is via backshell/airbags. <br /><br />Delivery platform could be evolved Pathfinder weather/seismo station. This kind of setup is achievable with current tech, much of it already developed. No humanoid robots or AI needed.<br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>