What would your dream Martian robot rover be like?

[willpittenger]

Actually, the MERs probably can take movies right now. With digital equipment, movies are really just time-laspe photos. The only question is how quickly they can take the next frame and how quickly they would run out of memory. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

You probably should have posted this by replying to my original post. As is, people may think you are replying about ASIMO. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[j05h]

I usually view the forums in list mode not threaded mode. The post was partly in reply to both original question and the ongoing bit about androids. <br /><br />The idea still doesn't make sense: take an inefficient bodyform (bipedal animal) and make it into an even more inefficient robot copy. Then expect it to somehow be easier to maintain? Doesn't follow. Boxes with wheels (rovers, dozers) with a service station makes much more sense, IMHO. But that's really base/outpost construction not exploration. For the near future, we have the tech do all sorts of cool, much cheaper missions to Mars.<br /><br />What do you think of the Balloon-Ball-Snake concept?<br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[yoda9999]

What if dust piles up on the ball or balloon? Could happen after a duststorm.

 

[Swampcat]

<font color="yellow">"What if dust piles up on the ball or balloon? Could happen after a duststorm."</font><br /><br />Refer to the MERs. They have been on Mars over 2 years and dust hasn't significantly affected them. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="3" color="#ff9900"><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>------------------------------------------------------------------- </em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."</em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong>Thomas Jefferson</strong></font></p></font> </div>

 

[mental_avenger]

<font color="yellow"> Why can't they put a high quality video camera on a Mars rover for some movie quality frame rate? Would it consume too much power? </font><br /><br />Bandwidth is the primary limiting factor. Consider that the Odyssey 2001 Orbiter takes pictures with the THEMIS camera system. The information that I have on that system is that it takes images for about 15 minutes out of every day, and spends the rest of the day transmitting them back to Earth. Those are still images, and take a lot less bandwidth than streaming video. Also, if the rover has to send the data up to the orbiter, which then sends it to Earth, the bandwidth is even narrower.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p style="margin-top:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2" color="#ff0000"><strong>Our Solar System must be passing through a Non Sequitur area of space.</strong></font></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Which century did you have mind mind for these autonomous, humanoid robots? This one or the next? And what would be the point of such devices on Mars? They are not needed to explore the planet. Much simpler (but still very challenging robots) of the level of the current rovers will be more than adequate for this phase of human exploration.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[no_way]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Which century did you have mind mind for these autonomous, humanoid robots?<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />This. And they are almost there.<br />Humanoid form isnt even that much of an issue, but sufficiently dexterous manipulators ( like human arms are ), universal mobility ( like legs provide) and long enough autonomy. <br />Point of such devices on mars or anywhere in hostile or hardly reachable environment is performing work there that otherwise only humans could.<br />Really, we could argue this in circles for years and you would still say "whats the point?" <br /><br />The question was "whats your dream robot (for exploration)". Well, the one that does not break down and is capable of doing everything that humans could, including fixing equipment. <br />Current asian developments in humanoid and dexterous robotics are getting there, fast.<br /><br />You can consider MER more than adequate, but its not capable of setting up and tending ISRU pilot plants, unpacking and setting up hab structures etc. etc. that are all required to prepare for human arrival. <br /><br />BTW: One universal dexterous robot off the production line will cost significantly less than a purpose-built one-off rover that can do a few highly specific tasks.

 

[JonClarke]

I wrote: "Which century did you have mind mind for these autonomous, humanoid robots?"<br /><br />you wrote: "This. And they are almost there."<br /><br />Define "almost here". Five years, 10 years, 20 years? Fifty years?<br /><br />you wrote: "Humanoid form isnt even that much of an issue, but sufficiently dexterous manipulators ( like human arms are ), universal mobility ( like legs provide) and long enough autonomy."<br /><br />What possible use would a humanoid of semi humanoid form be for a Mars rover?<br /><br />You wrote: "Point of such devices on mars or anywhere in hostile or hardly reachable environment is performing work there that otherwise only humans could."<br /><br />This is off topic. we are not discussing the relative roles of humans and robots in Mars exploration. We are discussing the configuration on an ideal Mars rover.<br /><br />your wrote: Really, we could argue this in circles for years and you would still say "whats the point?" "<br /><br />The why are you presenting an argument?<br /><br />You wrote: "The question was "whats your dream robot (for exploration)". Well, the one that does not break down and is capable of doing everything that humans could, including fixing equipment."<br /><br />You are right, it is a dream. I prefer my dreams to be closer to reality, but if you want fantasy robots that's your right. Just don't expect me to believe you.<br /><br />Your wrote: "Current asian developments in humanoid and dexterous robotics are getting there, fast. "<br /><br />Evidence please for this assertion. Nobody I know involved in robotic space exploration or research holds this opinion. When the Japanese, world leaders in humanoid robots, sent a robot to asteroid Itokawa they did not use a humanoid form or these dextrous manipulators. NASA tried to develop a teloperated robot with dexterity equivalent to a space suited astronaut (Robonaut) and failed.<br /><br />You wrote: "You can consider MER more than adequate, but its not capable of setting up and te <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[no_way]

First i have to apologize for bad formatting in my posts, for some reason under Linux my browser eats away line breaks <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Define "almost here". Five years, 10 years, 20 years? Fifty years? <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote> five to ten years tops. Quite a lot of relevant technology areas are moving forward in that direction ( MEMS sensors and actuators, embedded computing power, energy dense power storage ) and advent of consumer robotics is accelerating developments even further <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>What possible use would a humanoid of semi humanoid form be for a Mars rover?<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote> Climbing into places that wheeled rovers cant get to. Digging. Using all sorts of different tools that humans would. Need a new set of tools for new investigations ? simple, just soft-land a new toolkit nearby, your bot will go pick them up and make use of them. Building. Tending prototype equipment and experiments. Basically, like said, they could perform any acts that humans could, physically <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>we are not discussing the relative roles of humans and robots in Mars exploration. We are discussing the configuration on an ideal Mars rover.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote> Yes, and ideal exploration machine IM(nsH)O is as flexible and long lived as possible. Human form is about the most flexible form that comes to mind, familiar and already adapted to all the tools we have. It, however, does not have some disadvantages of humans, i.e. it does not need to get back home, and it does not need life support apart from replacement parts now and then and electric power source. <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>You wrote: "The question was "whats your dream robot (for exploration)". Well, the one that does not break down and is capable of doing everything that humans could, including fixing equipment." You are right, it is a dream. I pref</p></blockquote>

 

[no_way]

BTW, as you keep talking about "robots for exploration" it would be good to hear your definition of "exploration" to have a meaningful discussion. when does "exploring" stop and "setting up for humans" start ? i agree that for taking colorful pictures of landscape, nothing particularly dexterous or expensive is needed, a flying device would be much more suitable for that. but to get something useful done, the more dexterous and universal your robot is, the better.

 

[willpittenger]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>When does "exploring" stop and "setting up for humans" start?<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />When humans are orbiting or on the surface of Mars.<br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>I agree that for taking colorful pictures of landscape, nothing particularly dexterous or expensive is needed.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Even Sojourner did far more science that simply "taking pictures." Get your facts straight and we might not laugh. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

The process of setting up your habitats might be very different than you suggest. Some designs are supposed to be inflatable. Others come as preassembled modules that you simply connect and bury. With the first design, the habitat sets itself up. With the other, you send a big bulldozer. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[j05h]

and the bulldozer is a box on wheels/tracks, not a humanoid robot with a shovel. The right tool for the job.<br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

"BTW, as you keep talking about "robots for exploration" it would be good to hear your definition of "exploration" to have a meaningful discussion. when does "exploring" stop and "setting up for humans" start ?"<br /><br />This is a very interesting and good question. <br /><br />In this conversation I have taken "robots for exploration" as meaning "robotic exploration", exploring Mars using purely robotic means. I would distinguish this from both teleoperated exploration and robotic support for crewed missions.<br /><br />Teloperated missions (which may be where more humanoid forms become useful, as was intended for Robonaut) would be run from Mars orbit. Maybe later as an adjunct to surface operations, which leads to:<br /><br />Robotic support for crewed missions, whether we are talking about site preparation, robotic assistants, or extenders of human reach (cliff bots, cave bots, aerobots, UAVs, etc.)<br /><br />More later, hope you get your Linux sorted, I have to go to work....<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[scottb50]

i would say a flat head to set your beer on would be a good start for a robot. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

I should note that the MERs are somewhere in the gray area between being "tele-operated" and autonomous. Sojourner was similar, but not as advanced. The 20 minutes it takes signals to go between Earth and Mars means that true teleoperation is not possible. That is why I put the "Human in oribit" requirement in one of my posts for when a robotic mission starts to support humans.<br /><br />The MERs are given a series of waypoints to drive to and then given explicit directions to extend arms, operate tools, etc. True automony means doing some of the science for the scientests. While those scientests might not mind the robot ruling out the obvious things that would waste their time, they would probably prefer the robot sent back all other data in case the robot makes a mistake. Bad programming happens all the time. A program is only as good as the input data. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

FYI: A shovel would be only useful for small amounts of soil being moved. Burying a habit calls for something larger. Just a thought. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[no_way]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p> when "setting up for humans" start?<br />When humans are orbiting or on the surface of Mars. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Huh, so when next robotic lander includes a ISRU pilot plant of one type or another, thats not setting up for humans ? MRO mapping the potential landing sites and scouting for ice is not setting up for humans ? <br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>The process of setting up your habitats might be very different than you suggest. Some designs are supposed to be inflatable. Others come as preassembled modules that you simply connect and bury. With the first design, the habitat sets itself up.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Your first design includes a small robot in itself. Thats how all space probes have operated as of now. unfurling themselves, extending antennaes, opening solar panels etc etc using servos. Now, how many failures have we seen with these designs ? If the process gets stuck, your entire hab is useless. Plus, designing in self-assembly or self-configuration makes designs more expensive.<br />Now if you had humans on site ( or humanoids ) unpacking and setting something up is far more likely to succeed, and problems can be most likely recovered. That leaves us with the robot itself getting broken, but like i said, self-repair and maintenance would have to be a requirement for those from the very start.<br />As for sending bulldozers to do a single task .. i would not think that this is a wise usage of launch mass. See, you'd have to ship a separate machine to do each different task. Send a robotic bulldozer to dig a hole, send a robotic drill to drill into something, etc. etc. Instead, you could just send new tools to your robot making it a more and more universal task force all the time.<br />A shovel can definitely be used to dig a very big hole, it just takes more time. Whats more efficient, letting couple of bots do the digging with shovels or shipping mul

 

[no_way]

BTW, how would you go about designing a robot that would land near lunar poles and determine the form of buried hydrogen there ? We know theres hydrogen, we hope its water ice, and we hope its near the surface. We dont know much about topology of the sites, we dont know exactly what to look for, we dont know how deep to dig.<br />My design would basically be a humanoid with a pickaxe and portable spectrometer and some cliffhanging equipment ..

 

[j05h]

will- I'm talking about using the appropriate tool for the job. Humanoid robots won't make sense technically and economically in time - we need to be designing/building tools now, with available tech. Boxes-with-wheels work. Even if we were doing legged robots, a quadruped/centaur/gorilla form factor makes more sense than strict biped.<br /><br />no_way - I'm NOT talking about a discardable bulldozer. I'm talking a multi-ton, nuclear powered Swiss-Army knife of a bulldozer. The unit should work as external power source, multi-tooled dozer, backhoe and probably regolith-sandbagger. It would be designed to be modular and extensible and useful from whatever it's first tasks are until it is retired in the MarsBase Museum 50 years later. Nothing one-shot about it. <br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[no_way]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>we need to be designing/building tools now, with available tech.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote> <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>I'm talking a multi-ton, nuclear powered Swiss-Army knife of a bulldozer.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote> <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> how is your nuclear powered swiss army knife of a bulldozer more available than humanoid bots ? we have several humanoids working right from different developers, performing increasingly more complex tasks .. where have you seen a multi-tooled nuclear powered bulldozer/backhoe/sandbagger/kitchen sink ? any videos on the net perhaps ?

 

[j05h]

> any videos on the net perhaps ?<br /><br />I'd hazard that JPL and Catepilar would take up the challenge if money was available. Yes, RTG/Nuke-powered bulldozer/backhoe is a nearterm vehicle, especially for lunar work, than a humanoid. Yes, I described the kitchen sink. Half of that vehicle is already available down at the Rental place, any Bobcat or mini-hoe. Look at how long the MER rovers have lasted, and they only weigh several hundred pounds. Catepillar already makes industrial electric dozers. Tracks/wheels offer much better traction than feet and have less parts to fail. Maybe no vehicle on the Moon will last long due to dust. <br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[no_way]

i am terribly sorry, maybe its my reading comprehension problem ( not a native english-speaker ) but your post does not seem all that coherent to me.<br />JPL/Cat _would_ take up work for nuclear multi-purpose bulldozer, weighing so little that it can be soft-landed on mars with currently available transportation methods ? Like, how-near term does that sound to you ? Which reactor were you planning to use ??<br />Meanwhile, you can go and rent a working ASIMO from Honda right now ( yes, they are commercially leased ) . Its capabilities are pretty much as good as you can program it.<br />

 

[willpittenger]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>will- I'm talking about using the appropriate tool for the job. Humanoid robots won't make sense technically and economically in time - we need to be designing/building tools now, with available tech. Boxes-with-wheels work. Even if we were doing legged robots, a quadruped/centaur/gorilla form factor makes more sense than strict biped. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />I did not imply otherwise. I replied to you because of the need to expand on what you wrote. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>