When are we going to Mars??

JonClarke · Mar 24, 2007

criticizing NASA does not equal NASA bashing. Of course. And no organisation should be immune from well informed criticism. I do not class as well informed criticism that: Does not distinguish between decisions imposed from above from those made within the organisation. Does not allow for the the learning curve. It is easy to criticise the decision to commit to the space shuttle. But that is 20/20 hindsight. In context it is hard to see what else could have been done. Does not recognise how complex and naunced technical decisions often are. Deciding not use Transhab is a case in point. Fails to recongise that NASA cannot do everything on a limited budget. Does not recognise that the role of NASA is not to develop commerically viable industries, but to enable others to do so. Dismisses colossal achievements such as landing a man on the moon as being merely "1-2 days for 2 people in a tin foil can". Is driven by an ideological fixation that somehow private industry (despite all evidence to the contrary) will be able to do everything that NASA does faster cheaper better. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Mar 24, 2007

All good and useful things, but I'm curious to know why you think simulating ECLSS at the remote locations is not such a good idea. Mars is remote. If the Haughton-Mars Project is intended to test "realistic environments" shouldn't it have a better simulation of a Mars Habitat, a pressurized greenhouse and other more "realistic" equipment? It would seem that the remote location would be the ideal place to test these things. I think there are several reasons. The most immediate is that the Mars Societies (note the plural) don't have the resources for that very high tech research. Because of that the existing stations are not that sophisticated than an ordinary house. they are not airtight or capable of being pressurised, for example. Thirdly, to test equipment it would be probably be best done in an environment where all the power, support equipment, personnel, contractors etc. are to hand. From a Mars mission point of view, probably space stations and lunar missions would provide the realistic remote site trials of the life support systems in an environment where people can still be evacuated if things go pear shaped. I remember some discussion of the Russian IBMP. This is also a useful study, but IIRC (and correct me if I'm wrong), the participants would be kept inside a environmentally sealed habitat and there would be no "outside" activities. What seems to be needed here is a combination of the HMP and IBMP studies into a full and as accurate as realistically possible simulation of Mars living. IBMP is the organisation - the Institute for Biomedical Problems - perhaps the foremost authority on the operational aspects of living and working in space. The simulation has been simply called the 500 day experiment. It is my understanding that there will be a similated Mars chamber attached to the facility and a portion of the crew will spend some time in a separate series of compartments (t <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Mar 24, 2007

Nice photos! The foreground installations belong to the NASA Haughton Mars project on Devon Island. FMARS is the little white onject on the skyline. Unfortunately there is something of an iron curtain between the two. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Mar 24, 2007

Not sure about Jon, but the FMARS station (or whatever they call the Haughotn Crater site) does do "operational" testing with airlocks, simulated space suits, comm delay and all that. It's just to much trouble to do that 24/7. They run a trial, then go back to doing their other research. This summer's 4 month mission to FMARS will do full simulation for four months, barring safety issues. One such safety concession will be the fact tyat one person will alsoways be out of sim on EVAs riding shot gun because of the polar bear risk. Not something that has to be worried about on Mars! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

Swampcat · Mar 24, 2007

"...if you know of someone with a spare million or so, please contact them!" Money is always tight...just ask NASA <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />. I'd like to help, but I'm having trouble saving up enough money for my hybrid ground support equipment <img src="/images/icons/mad.gif" />. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

Swampcat · Mar 24, 2007

"One such safety concession will be the fact tyat one person will alsoways be out of sim on EVAs riding shot gun because of the polar bear risk. Not something that has to be worried about on Mars!" Yeah, but we'll have to keep an eye out for Marvin <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" />. Good to hear about the 4 month mission. Are you participating? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

Boris_Badenov · Mar 24, 2007

Yeah, but we'll have to keep an eye out for Marvin . Don't forget his terrifying "Instant Aliens." <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div> </div>

JonClarke · Mar 24, 2007

Good to hear about the 4 month mission. Are you participating? I wish! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> My role is limited to setting up a research project and providing backroom science support. I know a couple of the people going, they are very good. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

j05h · Mar 25, 2007

That's cool, nice pics. I spend time looking at Horton's Mars pics and other people doing color pictures using different filters on the Rovers. Some of the color-calibrated stuff (when you can see the color wheel especially) is fantastic. Mars is much more subtly colored than that first picture, maybe like Devon Island with a purplish sky? Horton's stuff is really good, but usually not true-color. But it does show you more of what your eye would see. It conveys a ranges of color, all the reds and oranges, but plenty of blue-gray and brown, yellow, pink, green and one rock that had flaming red tips on black basalt. If you look on MarsRoverBlog.com you can find some other attempts at "truer-color" images using different techniques. It's offtopic a little but I really love Mars as a place and the rovers are absolutely fantastic. http://www.flickr.com/photos/hortonheardawho/ Ontopic, Devon Island and the other MARS stations are necessary, cooperative precursors to further Earth-side development. The Mars Society started the station, has played host to NASA and other researchers and is expanding. They've done suit studies and device tests at the stations, plus treating the Hab as a sealed station with EVAs. For ECLSS development, I agree with whoever above said to test them in a proper facility. Can it be done in the Arctic? Perhaps, but it's almost as difficult as doing it in space. Can you develop working ECLSS entreprenurially in an industrial park? There are a lot of tasks to tackle before "we" get to Mars. Keep dreaming swampcat, help make it happen. Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center">We need a first generation of pioneers. </div> </div>

JonClarke · Mar 25, 2007

Keep dreaming... help make it happen. Ecellent advice, Hear! Hear! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

Swampcat · Mar 25, 2007

"Mars is much more subtly colored than that first picture..." Yep. Of course, you understand that I was just doing a quick color adjustment for the fun of it and subtracting some green and some blue, so naturally, the color isn't and wasn't really intended to be "true-color." If you'll remember, I posted a fair number of images on the Mars Images threads before...well, let's just say the neighborhood got a little too wierd for my taste. And thanks for the link to Horton. I've seen quite a few different efforts at MER color imaging. They're always interesting. "Keep dreaming swampcat, help make it happen." Well, it'll have to be the new generations that'll actually get to go. I'm afraid I'm far too old to expect to get off this planet myself and will likely not live to see others do so. But I think it's inevitable, assuming we don't do something stupid and destroy our ability...or become so cynical and risk averse that we give up. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

JonClarke · Mar 25, 2007

Yes, it will be our children or our grandchildren who do it. Our job is to keep the dream alive and lay the groundwork so that they can, if they so choose. If we are blessed me may live to see it. if not, we will at least have had the honour of playing a part. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

thereiwas · Mar 25, 2007

I do not think Congress can make proper decisions about cost tradeoffs and technical issues. And NASA's hands are tied in their own decisions because of the albatross of the pork system and defense contractors who do the work for them. That "NASA gold plating". Private companies like SpaceX are much more free in their decision making, even with smaller budgets, and their top-level decision makers are technically competent.

j05h · Mar 25, 2007

> Yep. Of course, you understand that I was just doing a quick color adjustment for the fun of it and subtracting some green and some blue, so naturally, the color isn't and wasn't really intended to be "true-color." Yeah, I realized it was just a red-adjusted pic. I was tired and wanted to talk about Mars color for a few... There was a good photo (Mars Soc or Spaceref) of Pascal Lee in one of the Mars analog suits on Devon Island, with the colors adjusted to reds. Which Mars image threads do you recommend, I haven't seen any of your pic posts. Here's one, but the color-adjusted pic was a front view: > Well, it'll have to be the new generations that'll actually get to go... do something stupid and destroy our ability...or become so cynical and risk averse that we give up. I'm young enough that I fully intend on going myself, I'm sorry for all of you in the older generation having to watch Apollo, STS etc and know you can't go. Unless something tragic (or cynical) happens in the next 40 years, I should get at least a suborbital flight, but I want and am working toward, going to Mars someday. "We need a first generation of pioneers". If Elon really does figure out single-digit millions for trips to Mars, I'm all over it, the money can be figured out. I am concerned with the risk-aversion in our society, enough NewSpace accidents could indeed kill the dream. Even the perception of risk (Beal Aerospace) can destroy the ambition. Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center">We need a first generation of pioneers. </div> </div>

rocketman5000 · Mar 25, 2007

Jon, We stand on the shoulders of the giants before us....

Swampcat · Mar 25, 2007

"Which Mars image threads do you recommend, I haven't seen any of your pic posts." Oh, how soon they forget <img src="/images/icons/frown.gif" />. Here's a short list: Image, Image, Image, Image, &quot;http://uplink.space.com/s...16071&amp;Search=true&amp</safety_wrapper <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

Swampcat · Mar 25, 2007

"I'm young enough that I fully intend on going myself, I'm sorry for all of you in the older generation having to watch Apollo, STS etc and know you can't go." Yeah, seeing things not progress as fast as we expected them to has been very disappointing. But good luck to you. Maybe things will work out and I will live to at least see one of our fellow uplinkers walking on Mars. That'd be cool no matter how old I am at the time. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

johns805 · Mar 25, 2007

Hi: People will go to Mars when they're able to. Reading through this thread, I see there's some wistfulness about advancing age preventing personal participation....Who knows? Anything is possible...A route that may lead to the future and the stars is being pursued...Starting on May 18th, there will be a conference on human cryopreservation sponsored by Suspended Animation, Inc. in Florida. Details at: http://www.suspendedinc.com It would be more practical from a supply and stress on the crew standpoint if successful suspended animation was developed for long space trips....If it isn't then it wouldn't surprise me if there was a "cabin fever" problem if a crew was cooped up in a smallish space vehicle for months, etc.even if it's a relatively short trip to Mars... This is all academic right now as the research and development is still at a very early stage....Moving it along requires any appreciated support...The medical spinoffs from these efforts should be obvious, even to the many who have no current interest in space travel. Isn't all this at least something to think about? My two cents! Best Regards! JBK Yes! You can turn me on! I'm on the radio! Surf City Sounds Plus: http://www.Live365.com/stations/johns805?play

JonClarke · Mar 25, 2007

Good points, but remember that companies have their hands tied in other ways. Having to show a profit is one. That is why moving into space is not a single front exercise. Not government or industry, but both. And, if costs come down and the technology base widens enough and becomes available enough, perhaps the private adventurer as well. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Mar 25, 2007

Suspended animation would be very helpful. It would save tonnes of consumables. But it may be decades before it is relaiable enough to be used on space mission. We also don't know how practical it is. Not much point using it if the equipment masses twice as much as the consumables it saves! So we should not wait for it for Mars, but it would be good to use it if available and practical. It could make much larger crews practical. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

Swampcat · Mar 25, 2007

"...companies have their hands tied in other ways. Having to show a profit is one. That is why moving into space is not a single front exercise. Not government or industry, but both." I'm not trying to be critical of you, Jon, but sometimes your way of saying things is curious. I suppose one could characterize having to show a profit as having your hands tied, but it can also be viewed as an incentive to lower costs and improve operational methods, both of which are needed to get humans off Earth in any sustainable way. Government, with no profit motive, has much less incentive to keep its costs reasonable. This can and often does lead to excesses that a private company simply couldn't put up with and survive. Of course, I'm sure you know this and probably disagree with some of my assessment, but that's cool. In fact, I wholeheartedly agree with you concerning the need for both government and industry involvement. I have issues with the way NASA generally does things, but I am optimistic that Dr. Griffin is making positive changes in NASA's direction, especially in regards to support for private enterprise. The more NASA does to "promote the general welfare" (that's a quote from the Preamble of the US Constitution for those who don't know) the better chance we'll have to go to Mars in a sustainable way...and provide jobs and economic growth as we do it. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

no_way · Mar 26, 2007

NASA is run by Aliens !! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Jeff Greason of XCOR was speaking on SA'07, and he had this to say: <blockquote>In reply to:<hr />NASA is a challenging customer for XCOR. The reason is not that they're stupid or incompetent. Have been impressed with competency and experience of the people they're dealing with. The unpleasant surprise is that they're like an alien race so alien that there's no point of contact or ability to communicate, in terms of their culture. Fortunately, ATK acts as an interpreter. XCOR producing engine results that NASA didn't expect to get. Instead of a technology hobby shop that they expected, there is now a place on the NASA product roadmap for methane to go, and all of a sudden this is becoming real (for lunar ascent stage). They have real hope that this engine will have a descendant that will lift astronauts from the moon, but this reality is putting new players in the game, and reexamining results to date.<hr /></blockquote>

JonClarke · Mar 26, 2007

I'm not trying to be critical of you, Jon, but sometimes your way of saying things is curious. Good! I have achieved my aim! So many people seem to think that private corporations are super entities that can do anything. In reality they have very specific goals and very tight constraints on reaching them. This effects what they do and how they do it. Little things like profit margins, spareholder dividends, annual rates of return, staying ahead of the competition etc., can't be ignored. Private companies can't afford to invest in R&D or innovation unless it there is a high payoff and low risk. Start up space businesses are so high risk to start with that these companies have to be extremely conservative in other ways. We see this in the technology. Most of the space start ups are quite conservative technologically. Rutan is the exception, but then his goal is the least technically demanding so he can afford to take more of a risk. I would say from direct experience that government agencies are under constant pressure to minimise costs. Much more so the private companies. However, being very different sorts of organisations with constraints means that their options for reducings cost are very different to those available for a private company. Also worth remembering that the context for both companies and government agencies will vary very much from country to country. For example, in few countries is there a system of "earmarks" to particular electorates that is such a feature of US government spending in defence and aerospace items. Chinese companies tend to accept a much lower profit margin than western companies, if it will give them a market edge. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Mar 26, 2007

I edited a couple of posts to reduce their width. Content not changed <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

Swampcat · Mar 26, 2007

"I edited a couple of posts to reduce their width. Content not changed" Sorry about the length, Jon, but when you edited, you broke several links. No problem. I fixed them...just hope I don't get banned for editing a mods edits <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

When are we going to Mars??

JonClarke

Guest

JonClarke

Guest

JonClarke

Guest

JonClarke

Guest

Swampcat

Guest

Swampcat

Guest

Boris_Badenov

Guest

JonClarke

Guest

j05h

Guest

JonClarke

Guest

Swampcat

Guest

JonClarke

Guest

thereiwas

Guest

j05h

Guest

rocketman5000

Guest

Swampcat

Guest

Swampcat

Guest

johns805

Guest

JonClarke

Guest

JonClarke

Guest

Swampcat

Guest

no_way

Guest

JonClarke

Guest

JonClarke

Guest

Swampcat

Guest

Similar threads

TRENDING THREADS

Latest posts

Share this page