Who owns 3554 Amun ?

[radarredux]

Or perhaps a better question is: "How do you own 3554 Amun?"<br /><br />What is 3554 Amun? From a CNN Business 2.0 article: It is a near-Earth asteroid that "<i>contains (at today's prices) roughly $8 trillion worth of iron and nickel, $6 trillion of cobalt, and $6 trillion of platinumlike metals.</i>" In 2020 its orbit will make it easier to reach than the Moon.<br /><br />How would a human or organization claim ownership of such a rock? Could a robot plant a flag? Would a human need to step foot on it? Would you have to demonstrate that you are actively pursuing mining? (US Patent law has a similar clause called "reduction to practice")<br /><br />Here is the article:<br />Profits set to soar in outer space<br />http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/27/technology/business2_guidetospaceintro/index.htm?cnn=yes

 

[mstar218]

under the current international agreements I don't think anybody can own it <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#003366">It's better to be a Pirate than to join the Navy</font> <em>~ Steve Jobs</em> </div>

 

[jschaef5]

what i can't believe is that there are companies out there that will try to get you to buy land on the moon from them. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[radarredux]

> <i><font color="yellow">what i can't believe is that there are companies out there that will try to get you to buy land on the moon from them.</font>/i><br /><br />My favorite (recently mentioned on The Space Review) is "Real Estate Commission and Trust of Uranus Management" (RECTUM).</i>

 

[propforce]

<font color="yellow">My favorite (recently mentioned on The Space Review) is "Real Estate Commission and Trust of Uranus Management" (RECTUM). </font><br /><br />Thanks. You just made my coffee went down the wrong pipe <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[radarredux]

> <i><font color="yellow">under the current international agreements I don't think anybody can own it</font>/i><br /><br />While the US signed and ratified the Outer Space Treaty of 1967 (which largely involved the military in space), the US did <i>not</i> sign or ratify the Moon Treaty of 1979 (which would have banned private ownership of celestial bodies). In fact, no space-faring country has signed the Moon Treaty.</i>

 

[mlorrey]

Yeah, and if US legal history with abyssal nodule mining, and the California and Alaska gold rushes, is any indication, the US government will recognise ownership if you go out and start mining. Russia will declare the sky yellow if you offer them enough money, and they are the only two countries that matter in this dog and pony show. Europe is of ever decreasing importance and potence in the world, and China hasn't yet reached the level where it can argue with the US and make it stick.

 

[rfoshaug]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Who owns 3554 Amun?<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Mining that asteroid could actually become profitable. The only problem would be to get the money necessary to go there before you get any profits from it. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff9900">----------------------------------</font></p><p><font color="#ff9900">My minds have many opinions</font></p> </div>

 

[ldyaidan]

I loved this article! It's just that kind of $$$ that will get the attention needed to help support the space program. When companies realize the money that can be made, I do think we'll see another "gold" rush. Robotic miners would be the cheapest, safest way to go. I'd love to see them harvesting the asteroids, and sending the raw materials to refineries on the moon. Then the refined materials can be sent to lunar manufacturing plants, to build spaceships, satelites, probes... This drastically reduces the cost of these things, since they don't have to be launch out of Earth's gravity field.<br /><br />Rae

 

[nibb31]

Do we have a shortage of nickel, iron and platinum that would justify the cost?

 

[mlorrey]

Platinum, certainly, the price is going higher and will continue to go higher, since its the key catalytic metal in PEM and other fuel cell technologies. That is on Earth.<br /><br />There is certainly a shortage of nickel and iron as building materials in orbit. The current market price for building materials in orbit is in excess of $20,000/kg. If you can beat that, you have an opportunity. This doesn't mean that $19,000/kg will meet much demand, or even $5,000/kg.<br /><br />Until you have a facility in orbit capable of using those materials, you won't see much demand, however if a mining mission is launched, you will see entrepreneurs and investors starting to take an interest. By the time you get some refined materials back to Earth orbit, that infrastructure just might be in place.

 

[no_way]

Its not even the question of having a shortage. Its about what possibilities abundance of these materials would open up. If platinum would be dirt cheap, so would be fuel cells. If for example lithium would be dirt cheap, li-ion batteries could be powering millions of cars on the streets already ( the major hurdle of getting fully electric cars with acceptable mileage on streets is cost of the battery pack )<br /><br />In other words, the possibilities are endless.

 

[mlorrey]

Abundance doesn't get the bills paid. Demand for a thing needs to meet its supply at a price above the cost of creating the thing. Particularly with 'green' products, if you can't produce and sell something profitably, subsidizing it actually produces more pollution than what you would otherwise save.

 

[tap_sa]

<font color="yellow">"roughly $8 trillion worth of iron and nickel, $6 trillion of cobalt, and $6 trillion of platinumlike metals"</font><br /><br />Any idea whether these figures are based on terrestial market prices or estimated price in orbit? If former then one could add a few zeroes to those figures.

 

[nibb31]

"There is certainly a shortage of nickel and iron as building materials in orbit. The current market price for building materials in orbit is in excess of $20,000/kg."<br /><br />I wasn't aware there was a market for iron lingots in orbit, let alone a market *price*.

 

[shyningnight]

I suspect those prices are at current market prices delivered "ground side" to industry... basically to the foundry door.<br /><br />So.. that's $20 TRILLION dolllars at the current market price.<br />THose prices will only go UP from here as we mine out the easy to reach resources here on earth, and have to spend more to get to the harder to reach ones.<br /><br />So.. lets say that it would cost 8 trillion dollars to develop super-heavy launchers, orbital mining gear, manned capability, robotic landing/docking gear. the works... Not to mention the capability to land these ores on Earth where they can be BROUGHT to market.<br /><br />That leaves a pretty healthy amount of profit left after the R&D and initial construction are paid for.<br /><br />As for "who owns it"..<br />I think anyone who gets there first is going to have title.. or at least, I doubt they'll need to worry about claim jumpers for a while! <br /><br />Paul F.

 

[no_way]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Abundance doesn't get the bills paid. Demand for a thing needs to meet its supply at a price above the cost of creating the thing.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />what on earth are you talking about ? picture yourself running a company wanting to mass market platinum-based fuell cells. only thing stopping you going high volume is because platinum is damn expensive and no matter how much you optimize your production methods, you cant drop the price of the unit.<br />now lets say, with one investment you have the opportunity to bring in huge amounts of PGMs at one tenth of the market price. <br />result : high volume cheap fuel cells available on the market, your company getting nice margins on high-volume product. what exactly is wrong with that ?

 

[bwhite]

Nibb31 asks "what would you do with nickel or iron ingots in orbit"<br /><br />Answer:<br /><br />If it's metallic nickel (pure Ni) I'd digest it with carbon monoxide to create nickel carbonyl gas [Ni(CO)4 as I recall] and then I'd vapor deposit it to create all sorts of fancy metal parts.<br /><br />Google "nickel vapor deposition" for oodles of information.<br /><br />Note that carbonyl digestion of metallic nickel (a/k/a Mond Process) and nickel vapor deposition both occur at very modest - - read cheap! - - temperatures and pressures. <br /><br />= = =<br /><br />::snark on::<br /><br />Me? I'd make nickel forks, spoons and cups and sell them at the Sharper Image for $1000 or more per one ounce place setting. <br /><br />::snark off::

 

[lbiderman]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p> Particularly with 'green' products, if you can't produce and sell something profitably, subsidizing it actually produces more pollution than what you would otherwise save.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />I would really love if you can explain this. The last time I checked, hybrid engines, for instance, SAVE fuel. Do you have an example for that?

 

[shyningnight]

It's called the law of unintended consequences...<br />Ever consider the extra pollution generated by battery manufacture for Hybrid vehicles? How about the additional copper used in making the wheel motors? Disposing of used battery packs?<br /><br />I'm not saying that Hybrids or other "green" solutions are BAD.. but they often have consequences no BETTER than the "dirty" solution they replace.<br /><br />Still, no reason not to continue trying to improve.<br />Paul F.

 

[henryhallam]

Right.. economic cost is often a fairly good indicator of relative environmental damage. Of course it is not a perfect correlation, particularly with things that have a high "information content" e.g. computer software.

 

[baktothemoon]

Is mining this thing really practical? I mean, you would need robots that can work autonomously all the time to mine it because the asteroid isn't always by earth. You would need a reentry vehicle that can land these super loads of raw metal. You would need HLV's large enough to get the equipment up there. And, you would need some way to refine the ore in orbit. I don't think that we can get that much metal back to Earth in large enough loads at close enough intervals to make a profit.<br />Not to mention that since it is in a different orbit than Earth that any loads of metal would either get here in one large shipment or smaller shipments that take a very long time to get to Earth. The only practical thing I think we could do IF we can mine it is to try to push it into orbit around the Earth and then use the metal to make a shipyard in orbit where we would use the metals to build our future ships. If any of this is even possible.<br /><br />"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." John F. Kennedy

 

[tap_sa]

<font color="yellow">"you would need robots that can work autonomously all the time to mine it because the asteroid isn't always by earth."</font><br /><br />Or you make the mining vehicle/flotilla of vehicles large enough to act as a long term habitat for the mining crew.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">"You would need a reentry vehicle that can land these super loads of raw metal."</font><br /><br />Initially forget the cheap bulk metals and concentrate on PGMs. Platinum fetches $35,000/kg, Rhodium three times that. Simple ballistic reentry capsule can be manufactured from steel, payload being a slab of some PGM acting as a heat sink.<br /><br />The rock weighs 16 billion tonnes, making it practically impossible to push it into Earth orbit. Better have the shipyard at the asteroid. To move a lot of bulk material off the rock may involve a mass driver.<br />

 

[craig42]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>In fact, no space-faring country has signed the Moon Treaty.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote> IIRC Austria (a member of ESA)did sign the Moon Treaty.<br /><br />Hey and it crosses Earth-orbit and Venus orbit too. Handy for launching a few probes that way too, perhaps?<br /><br />Hmm accroding to Wikipedia it looks like those figures come from Space Resources: Breaking the Bonds of Earth by John S. Lewis. Does anyone have a copy to see if they are orbital or Earth prices?

 

[bwhite]

<i>Initially forget the cheap bulk metals and concentrate on PGMs. Platinum fetches $35,000/kg, Rhodium three times that. Simple ballistic reentry capsule can be manufactured from steel, payload being a slab of some PGM acting as a heat sink. </i><br /><br />Or find asteroid fragments that have already come to rest on the lunar surface. Three days away and no spinning or tumbling to worry about. Plus, on the moon we can practice the processing technologies needed to mine asteroids. <br /><br />Earth return? I like Tap Sa's ideas on that. Another use for the nickel and iron "left over" from PGM mining.