X-Rays and Atoms

[dryson]

I was reading this while investigating another theory related to repelling atoms away from a hull.

Since the quantum energies of x-ray photons are much too high to be absorbed in electron transitions between states for most atoms, they can interact with an electron only by knocking it completely out of the atom. That is, all x-rays are classified as ionizing radiation. This can occur by giving all of the energy to an electron (photoionization) or by giving part of the energy to the electron and the remainder to a lower energy photon (Compton scattering). At sufficiently high energies, the x-ray photon can create an electron positron pair.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/mod3.html#c6

The question that I have is since the x-ray knocks the electron completely off of the atoms could we bundle the electrons together in a group by surrounding the escaping electrons with x-rays? What would happen if we were to pulse the x-ray in and out? What type of eneregetic reaction could be we see as a result?

 

[origin]

I was reading this while investigating another theory related to repelling atoms away from a hull.

Since the quantum energies of x-ray photons are much too high to be absorbed in electron transitions between states for most atoms, they can interact with an electron only by knocking it completely out of the atom. That is, all x-rays are classified as ionizing radiation. This can occur by giving all of the energy to an electron (photoionization) or by giving part of the energy to the electron and the remainder to a lower energy photon (Compton scattering). At sufficiently high energies, the x-ray photon can create an electron positron pair.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/mod3.html#c6

The question that I have is since the x-ray knocks the electron completely off of the atoms could we bundle the electrons together in a group by surrounding the escaping electrons with x-rays? What would happen if we were to pulse the x-ray in and out? What type of eneregetic reaction could be we see as a result?

Yes you could in theory 'bundle' the electrons after you slowed them down with an electric field. However a battery would be a much cheaper and easier way to harness electrons.

 

[dryson]

What could the result be though? Could we bundle lots of electrons together and then introduce another type of particle that would cause a release in energy greater than even a nuclear reaction? Could we bundle neutrons and protons in this manner or just the electrons?

 

[origin]

What could the result be though? Could we bundle lots of electrons together and then introduce another type of particle that would cause a release in energy greater than even a nuclear reaction? [/qoute]

No

Could we bundle neutrons and protons in this manner or just the electrons?

the xrays only interact with the electrons.

 

[theridane]

By collecting a large amount of electrons you'd get a cloud of negatively charged plasma, nothing else. The device you're describing is called a particle trap. Not sure about x-rays, that kind of a trap would need a lot of active management to get it working (a system that detects fleeing electrons, targets them with an xray gun and kicks them back into the cloud). Normal particle traps (used to contain any charged particle, e.g. electrons, positrons, protons or antiprotons) utilize magnetic and electric fields to trap clouds of low-energy particles. Google "penning trap".

 

[dryson]

Is there anyway to bundle the protons in the same manner that the electrons are bundled? If x-rays can be used to knock electrons off of an atom then there must be some type of wavelength that would be able to knock a proton off of the atom and then bundle those up as well in the same manner that the x-ray knocks the electrons off of the atom.

One wavelength that affects the electron will have another wave that affects the proton. It would be interesting to find the wavelength that affects the protons in the same manner that the x-ray affects the electrons. In theory we could hold various numbers of both in a stasis field, one being comprised of x-rays to bundle the electrons and the other as being unnawavium to bundle the protons. When we needed a certain number of electrons and protons to create a desired energetic release we could allow a portion of each wavelengths stasis field to collapse allowing a certain number of each particle to be released to build whatever atom we are trying to build or energetic reaction that we are trying to create.

 

[origin]

Is there anyway to bundle the protons in the same manner that the electrons are bundled? If x-rays can be used to knock electrons off of an atom then there must be some type of wavelength that would be able to knock a proton off of the atom and then bundle those up as well in the same manner that the x-ray knocks the electrons off of the atom.

One wavelength that affects the electron will have another wave that affects the proton. It would be interesting to find the wavelength that affects the protons in the same manner that the x-ray affects the electrons. In theory we could hold various numbers of both in a stasis field, one being comprised of x-rays to bundle the electrons and the other as being unnawavium to bundle the protons. When we needed a certain number of electrons and protons to create a desired energetic release we could allow a portion of each wavelengths stasis field to collapse allowing a certain number of each particle to be released to build whatever atom we are trying to build or energetic reaction that we are trying to create.

I believe I hear the unexplained forum calling for this thread to meld it....

 

[theridane]

If x-rays can be used to knock electrons off of an atom then there must be some type of wavelength that would be able to knock a proton off of the atom (...)

That would need to be one hell of a photon, way, way beyong the gamma region. To "knock protons off of an atom" we've been using neutrons since early 20th century, and with great success. It's called nuclear fission and it's most likely powering the computer you're using right now.

 

[MeteorWayne]

Knocking protons off an atom would make it a different element...

 

[dryson]

I thought knocking an electron off of the atom was how it was made into a different element.

 

[theridane]

That's how you make ions (of the same element).

 

[origin]

I thought knocking an electron off of the atom was how it was made into a different element.

No that is ionization.

Chlorine is an atom, if you add 1 electron it becomes an ion called a chloride. Chlorine is a gas that is deadly. Chlorides are what is found in salt NaCl

The other part of salt is a sodium ion Na+ it has an electron knocked off an sodium atom. Soduim is a metal that violently reacts with water.

If you add or take away a neutron from an atom the new material is called and isotope it is still the original element it is just an isotope of that element. There is normal carbon which is carbon 12 this is an atom that has 6 proton and 6 neutrons. If you have an isotope called carbon 14 then it has 6 protons and 8 neutrons.

An element is defined by the number of protons in the nucleus.

 

[MeteorWayne]

I thought knocking an electron off of the atom was how it was made into a different element.

You really should get some 3rd grade physics and chemistry education before you start trying to explain the Universe.

 

[SpaceTas]

It's a bit beyond 3rd grade physics, but not by a lot:

photon a wave-particle of electromagnetic energy specified by its wavelength or frequency or energy

Here's the "3rd grade physics"; but get yourself a basic science book.
At the end there is the mearest beginning of what is really involved in understanding "bundles of electrons"

atom: 2 parts nucleus very small made up of protons (1 positive charge) and neutrons (no charge).
cloud of electrons (1 negative charge). The electrons a grouped by energy. They have very low mass compared to neutrons and protons.

The type of element depends upon number of protons H has 1 , Helium has 2, Carbon has 12 ....

Isotopes of an element contain different numbers of neutrons. He3 has 3 neutrons rather than the normal 2

photo-ionization process of removing electron from atom, by its interaction with a high enough energy photon (X-rays).
remove 1 electron atom has a positive charge of 1, the atom is now called an ion
There are other ways to ionize (remove electrons).

NOTE photo-ionization is only 1 of 3 different interactions between photons and electrons mentioned in your original quote which unfortunately blends them together and is not that accurate.. There are other interactions.

As to the original wild question:

A cloud of electrons is very hard to control, because they all have a negative charge and repel each other, but through combinations of magnetic and electric fields, beams (bundles) of electrons are routinely controlled: old style TV's used electron beams sweeping back-n-forth line by line to build up a moving image. or etching computer chips, arc welding ....

Now if you mix ions (atoms minus electrons) and the electron from those atoms you have a plasma; Sun a very dense plasma, Suns other atmosphere (==Corona) is a very low density, very hot plasma, fluorescent tubes: a medium density low temperature plasma, lighting .... Now because the ions and electrons are when separated chargesd, they will interact with an electric field or when moving a magnetic field. Plasmas also generate magnetic and electric fields. So the equations governing their motions get to be hairy (final year Uni physics). It's part of why it is harder to predict solar storms than the weather, why nuclear fusion is hard to do ...

But there is a basic wavelength which characterizes each plasma component; gro-cyclotron frequency (photon interactions, motions in magnetic fields) and Alfven (a bit like the sound speed) wavelength. Both depend on the mass of the charges particles and so are different for electrons and protons. 1st basic principle is that magnetic fields are tied to plasma, so plasma particles move along lines of equi-magnetic-force, and magnetic fields are "frozen" into plasma (if you compress a plasma you also compress field). You can see some of this when watching movies of solar activity above spots. Fun