30 Years to figure this out!!!???: Moon dust Magnetic

[mikejz]

From http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2006/04apr_magneticmoondust.htm<br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p><br />April 4, 2006: Thirty-plus years ago on the moon, Apollo astronauts made an important discovery: Moondust can be a major nuisance. The fine powdery grit was everywhere and had a curious way of getting into things. Moondust plugged bolt holes, fouled tools, coated astronauts' visors and abraded their gloves. Very often while working on the surface, they had to stop what they were doing to clean their cameras and equipment using large--and mostly ineffective--brushes. <br /><br />Dealing with "the dust problem" is going to be a priority for the next generation of NASA explorers. But how? Professor Larry Taylor, director of the Planetary Geosciences Institute at the University of Tennessee, believes he has an answer: "Magnets."<br /><br />The idea came to him in the year 2000. Taylor was in his lab studying a moondust sample from the Apollo 17 mission and, curious to see what would happen, he ran a magnet through the dust. To his surprise, "all of the little grains jumped up and stuck to the magnet." <br /><br />"I didn't appreciate what I had discovered," recalls Taylor, "until I was explaining it to Apollo 17 astronaut Jack Schmitt one day in my office, and he said, 'Gads, just think what we could have done with a brush with a magnet attached!'" <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Sorry, I am sort of insulted by the fact that it took 30 years to determine something as basic as this.

 

[nacnud]

I suppose that if the samples of moon dust arn't available to 'play' with alot of it's properties, especialy those not specificaly looked for, won't be imediatly aparent.

 

[JonClarke]

It has been known for more than 30 years that lunar lines contain a magnetic fraction. Both nickel iron and ilmenite are both magnetic. So I think this is an example of press release science, not to be taken seriously. <br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[mlorrey]

I'd say its par for the course. It took them 30 years to figure out the space shuttle was a bad idea.

 

[radarredux]

> <i><font color="yellow">I am sort of insulted by the fact that it took 30 years to determine something as basic as this.</font>/i><br /><br />It has been over 30 years since anyone needed to worry about moondust. Now that the Moon is back on the agenda ...</i>

 

[rybanis]

Good God man, can we keep any threads free of that subject? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[jschaef5]

Yah, its definitely getting annoying. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

A few minutes work on standard databases turned up the following references between 1970 and 1974:<br /><br />Doell, R. R., Gromme, C. S., Thorpe, A. N., and Senftle, F. E. 1970. Magnetic studies of lunar samples. Science 167, 695-697.<br /><br />Helsley, C. E. 1970. Magnetic properties of lunar dust and rock samples. Science. 167, 693-695.<br /><br />Runcorn, S. K. 1970. Lunar dust. Science Journal 6(5), 27-32.<br /><br />Schwarz, E. J. 1970. Thermomagnetics of lunar dust sample 10084-88. Apollo 11 Lunar Science Conference, Proceedings Vol. 3, 2389-2397.<br /><br />Stephenson, A. 1971. Single domain grain distributions; II, the distribution of single domain iron grains in Apollo 11 lunar dust. Physics of the Earth and Planetary Interiors. 4(5), 361-369.<br /><br /><br />Plus there has been a lot of work on the use of magnetic separators for Lunar ISRU. Anyone interested in the Moon, inside and outside NASA has known this for 30 years. So, like I said, this is a non-news release. <br /><br />Jon <br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[jschaef5]

Do you know if NASA or anyone has looked into or built an electromagnet type device for collecting unwanted dust? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[elguapoguano]

How about using electromagnitism to push the nasty moon dust away from us and our equiptment. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#ff0000"><u><em>Don't let your sig line incite a gay thread ;>)</em></u></font> </div>

 

[CalliArcale]

My guess is that it would work great, except that then all the avionics shut down, including the computers regulating the internal suit environment. <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[nacnud]

magnetic brush + hoover = problem solved for removing dust from airlock and suits<br /><br />However there is still the ware on the suits while actualy on the surface to consider.

 

[JonClarke]

Also things like moving parts on rovers etc. There are two approaches that would work, which is used will vary according to the circumstances. One is extremely high tolerances to prevent dust ingress, the other is a very open structure to faciliate dust egress. There is also a need for good vacuum lubricants. Graphite powder is one, it is possible that a steady supply of this oozing out of bearings would flush out dust. Such an approach is used for bearings on earth moving machinary, although of course in that case the lubricant is a grease. <br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[nacnud]

How do silicon based lubes so in vacuum?

 

[webtaz99]

That's something I have been wondering about. If we use moving parts on the Lunar surface, they will need a lubricant which stands up to vacuum, huge temperature swings, and "moondust". Some of the particles are 5 microns and less, so simply "keeping it out" is not possible. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[mlorrey]

Well, given they are magnetic, then magnetic bearings won't work. Air bearings won't work, obviously. Teflon was invented for a reason. So were labyrinth seals.<br /><br />Ferrofluids of a particularly thick and temperature tolerante variety may be of use, don't know how said ferrofluids stay put in a vacuum.<br /><br />Packing bearings 100% with a non-evaporating lubricant that can handle large temp swings is a trick. Any air bubbles injected during packing will expand and blow the lube out through the seals. However, so long as the lube doesn't evaporate in its operating range and in a vacuum, it should stay in situ if packed properly.<br /><br />I'd hate to have to pack bearings outside on the moon while wearing a space suit.

 

[JonClarke]

Graphite has been long used as dry lubricant. As for particle size, while some lunar dust comes it at 5 microns, much of it is coarser. The question then becomes how much is a problem, will of course depend on application.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[vogon13]

Seems like the Viking landers had magnets on them and did collect materials visible to the on board cameras.<br /><br />Don't recall if the lunar Surveyors had magnets on them, pretty easy experiment to do and cheap.<br /><br />I'm just not quite old enough to recall too many specifics from the Surveyor program. Don't recall if my Janes Catalog had anything about that either.<br /><br />~13 years ago the planetarium in Chicago had a nice model of the Surveyor, I don't know if it is still there.<br /><br />Soviets had several successful landers and rovers on the moon too (even sample returns).<br /><br />Maybe they stuck a magnet on one of their unmanned explorers.<br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

The surveyors had small magnets on the landing pads. Not sure about the Lunas, but I would not be surprised if they did .<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[scottb50]

As long as you don't use magnetic materials it doesn't matter. Then it's only dust, the real problem.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[scottb50]

Perhaps the best way would be to go outside in sealed vehicles that dock to the Station. The less lunar dust that gets inside the better.<br /><br />You could do more from a vehicle with collection equipment than on foot. Especially if your based there. Need a different tool? Come back when you have it. <br /><br />The biggest problem I see is contamination. Not biological, just dirt. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[webtaz99]

Not all of the regolith is magnetic, so purely magnetic solutions will not work. Some combination of labyrinth seal and sacrificial, regularly-replaced "filter" will probably work.<br /><br />And where possible, flexible coverings cna keep dust away from joints, etc. The good news is that there is no wind to take dust where it would not otherwise go. <br /><br />There's going to be lots of "little stuff" we will have to deal with, on top of all the obvious problems, when we finally start living on the Moon. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[mikejz]

I forget the post, but someone suggested that for a lunar mission a Orlan style suit could be used where the astronaut simply backed up to the airlock and entered via the single back hatch. That way the suit would never actually enter the pressured area, and therefore reduce the issue of dust.

 

[webtaz99]

Surely a "dust cover" (some recyclable outer "skin") will be used. There is no practical way to draw a sharp line between "clean" and "dusty" in the habitat. Going in or out will probably involve several stages from "shirt sleeves" to "Lunar surface ready" or vice-versa. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

Docking vehicles, including landers if possible, would be a good idea and would help somewhat, but astronauts will need need to venture outside in order to examine rocks up close. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>