A ball of water the size of the earth

kmarinas86 · Nov 21, 2004

Imagine if you took a whole bunch of water in space to one place so that it forms a ball of water the size of the Earth. What would happen to this ball of water if you forced together it cohese with itself so that it wouldn't be ripped apart by the sun?

igorsboss · Nov 21, 2004

It would naturally form an atmosphere to deal with the pressure gradient between the liquid surface and the vaccuum of space. If it were heated by a nearby star, the atmosphere would convect, creating weather. I suddenly feel very, very thirsty.

kmarinas86 · Nov 21, 2004

That's awesome man. What depth would you have to dive in so you can swim at room temperature?

odysseus145 · Nov 22, 2004

So as soon as a "core" would form it would immediatly shoot to the surface? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

odysseus145 · Nov 22, 2004

That's kind of dissapointing, but it was cool to think about. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

igorsboss · Nov 22, 2004

Nice work on the Ocean planets... Hmmm.... Without land masses, wind-driven surface swells could become huge! With no barriers, they would be limited by friction alone.

bobvanx · Nov 22, 2004

Thank you so much for the link to that chart! I can see exactly what you are discussing, and without attending an entire course of study! However, I'm not seeing IIX on your chart. Do you mean XII? The suupercriticality interface is very interesting. I also note that many of the high-density ices have dis-ordered structure. This starts me thinking about the mechanism for heat transfer on this world. If it were suitably "tainted" with trace elements, including radiactive isotopes, the core could be very hot indeed, and you'd have significant convection going on. What's the pressure at the center of this world? Maybe I'd better go look at your first link.

bobvanx · Nov 22, 2004

Eh, I didn't see what I was looking for. I was trying to make a guess which phase the core of this water/warm ice world would be.

robnissen · Nov 22, 2004

"Frankly, the ball of water would very rapidly freeze solid on the surface to a depth of several kms. And then continue to freeze as more and more heat was lost. I don't have the calculus & data to compute heat transfer for an estimated time for freezing, but it would be finite and probably within a few millions of years or a few thousands of years." That statement is nonsensical. Whether the ball of water would completely freeze, is going to be a direct result of how close it is to a star. I am quite certain that a ball of water in Mercury's orbit would not freeze. It would probably dissipate, however, but that is a separate question.

Saiph · Nov 22, 2004

I'll do a more thurough critique of this in a couple days, when I have more time. However: 1) There are different types of water ice, only a couple of which (one actually, IIRC) is less dense that water. These ices form under different pressures. It's much like rock formation. The same type of material, put under different temperature and pressure conditions, can solidify into different types of metamorphic rock. E.g. limestone and marble. 2) Just because it's exposed to vacuum doesn't mean it freezes. Actually water at room temperature exposed to a vacuum BOILS, but the evaporative action quickly dissipates heat from the water, lowering the temperauter, and induces freezing. 3) This ball of water however, is large enough to sustain an atmosphere, and insulate itself from the vacuum (after a lot of initial boiling to be sure). If this isn't the case then earths oceans (a full 2/3 or our surface area) should be frozen, as they'd be as exposed to the vacuum of space as the water on this earth-sized water ball. Later, and stop jumping to conclusions. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

Maddad · Nov 22, 2004

eburacum45 "Somewhere I have the equations for working out the gravity of such a ball Shouldn't it be 18% that of Earth because the density of Earth is 5.5 times that of water? Ok, I looked further down in your thread. You're using an average density of 2.3 gm/cc, not just 1 at the surface. That does work out to 43% Earth's gravity. Nice idea with that simulation. steve "I have some basic physics for you. Ice is about 1/11 as dense as water Think again. "reductio ad absurdum. A single contradictory example makes the premise false. Welcome to Orion's Dark Side.

rogers_buck · Nov 23, 2004

It would be interesting to model what would happen if a respectable sized asteroid impacted your water world. Would the giant rain drop oscillate violently when struck?

bobvanx · Nov 24, 2004

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />humidity lowers barometric pressures<hr /></blockquote> Steve, are you a pilot?

Maddad · Nov 24, 2004

steve "This ball of water is large enough to sustain an atmosphere..... And insulate itself from the vacuum. I see. That was not in the inital conditions. Perhaps you were too busy giving incorrect basic physics lessons to read the question.

nexium · Nov 25, 2004

I think the early idea of a thick water vapor atmosphere is correct. There would be lots of oxygen disolved in the water all the way to the core of the planet, after a few billion years of solar radiation disassociating hydrogen from water. Hydrogen would be lost into space. The planet might loose 500 miles (average) of radius per billion years due to lost hydrogen. That would make the radius 6000 miles, 4 billion years ago, compared to a present 4000 miles. Millimeter and smaller ice crsytals would form at an altitude of about 100 miles, but they would melt before reaching the surface, because water vapor is a green house gas. It is unfortunate that an ice core was mentioned. A solid phase of water would have been more correct. It would be surprising if any of these high pressure (one million atmospheres?) phases of water have a density less than 1.2 Perhaps the researchers were unable to measure density with confidence. If the density is about 7, at the center, the surface gravity would be about 1 G. 0.6 G is likely a better guess, but that would likely loose little oxygen at the top of the atmosphere unless the solar wind was stronger than Earth has at present. Could a water planet have a magnetic field? Would one part per million of hydrogen with 2 nuetrons produce significant internal heat? Neil

Maddad · Nov 25, 2004

steve "The major problem with the water world hypothesis is that it is just that. There is NO small or large scale testing of it and possibly never will be Yes, I suppose that for someone who has never learned to think for themselves, not having anyone to give them answer would be a problem. Imagination isn't your strong suit, is it blackie? eburacum45 "older simulation programs such as Stargen and Accrete produce almost no examples of hot jupiter type planets, a planetary type which was almost completely unforeseen before recent discoveries GIGO - Garbage In, Garbage Out. The programmer of those early simulations didn't account for the conditions in their simulations, so they never showed up. It's just part of our learning process. Tigerbiten "Plus no metal core probably equals no magnetic field so the solar wind has more chance to strip away any atmosphere. Good point.

cosmictraveler · Nov 26, 2004

What about Titan ? It isn't as large as Earth but they think it is frozen surface and iunder that water. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It does not require many words to speak the truth. Chief Joseph </div>

mcbethcg · Nov 26, 2004

OK, I'll weigh in on this. Too many stupid arguments. I don't understand why this is even a question to anyone, so I'll try to be extremely basic. The chemical compound we call Water is nothing special in the universe. It is only special to humans because it is the only chemical that happens to exist naturally on the surface of this world as a liquid, solid, and gas. It is the only chemical with those properties here because cosmic circumstances happened to 1) accumulate lots of it here, and 2) provide the proper temperatures and pressures for it to exist in the different states. Any other chemical or element will exist as a solid, liquid, or gas under the right temperatures or pressures. To us, oxygen and nitrogen are gasses. On some worlds, however, pressure and temperature make it so that they are solids or liquids. We know this because we know exactly what temperature and pressure is required to reach these states, and we know that there are worlds that have the required temperatures and pressures. When water exists as a solid, it behaves like any other solid. When water exists as a liquid, it follows the same physical rules that any other liquid follows. When water exists as a gas, it follows the same rules as any other gas. Experimental evidence demonstrates that when water is subjected to zero atmospheric pressure, at room temperature, it boils and becomes a gas. Observational evidence demonstrates that the gravity of planets cause them to retain gasses around them as atmospheres. Therefore: a ball of water that had gravity would boil until it had an atmosphere of water vapor. Experimental evidence indicates that water vapor slowly breaks down into hydrogen and oxygen when subjected to ultraviolet light. Therefore, it is likely that if a ball of water formed at the time of the origen of our solar system, it would have an atmosphere that is largely oxygen and hydr

centsworth_II · Nov 26, 2004

"The chemical compound we call Water is nothing special in the universe." Everything you say seems reasonable to me. I would only point out that one very good reason that we humans feel an attachment, affection even, for water is that to date it is the only solvent known to support life. Even theoretically, any other possible compound to fulfill this role comes in a distant second. So, yes, water is very special. In a purely non-biophysics sense -- water is just another compound -- I see your point. but even then, like all compounds, water has little quirks that make it act -- in novel situations -- in ways that cannot be predicted, given our lack of ultimate theoretical and computer power to know everything. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

Saiph · Nov 26, 2004

mcbeth: Good post, that is exactly what I was going to write. Glad I finished reading all the new posts. Steve: Is it a hypothetical? Yes, Is it a hypothesis? Yes Does that mean it's true? No. So far I agree. However you also state that this hypothetical is impossible, that it cannot exist in a steady state, that it will vanish in a relatively short period of time. I disagree. I think that it would remain, after the changes mcbeth describes, and stay. Have we ever seen it? No. But we have similar things, we've got solid planets with gaseous atmospheres, formed by outgassing (gas released from the planet). This is very similar to earth. Sure the atmosphere is likely to be thinner, sure light will cause the water to disociate. However if the mass of water is ~1 earth mass, the water will stay around for a long time. Water is still to heavy to escape earth. Sunlight will disociate it, causing it to split, and the resulting hydrogen will leave. This will slowly shrink the ball's mass, and over time allow more water atmosphere (along with increasing losses of hydrogen and oxygen). However, it won't just "boil into nothing" immediately. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

Maddad · Nov 26, 2004

steve "As no experimental small or large scale has been done, or might ever be done, this remains hypothetical at best. Oh, I see where your confusion comes from. You took this whole issue literally. Young kids do tend to do that, yanno. I wouldn't feel badly about it. Yes, this was all a hypothetical exploration. mcbethcg "The chemical compound we call Water is nothing special in the universe. Actually it is. It's absolutely unique. There is nothing else we could substitute for water that would support life as we know it.

mcbethcg · Nov 27, 2004

This topic has been about the physical nature of a ball of water, not about life. Naturally water (and oxygen and carbon) is unique in that it supports life. But physically water is just another chemical. You could say that any chemical is unique in some particular way- "only ammonia will dissolve zirconium hydro thyrate" but physically, water is not all that special. Thats my point. And actually, many think that only water can support life- but those folks have only observed one planet that has life. Who knows what is out there. It's like an ancient New Guinean saying that only pigs and yams can support the human diet.

Maddad · Nov 27, 2004

"for any serious hypothesis there must be a serious test of its validity. You're still having trouble with this, aren't you? This isn't a serious hypothesis; it's speculation. It's Ok to think steve. It won't hurt you.<ul>mcbethcg "physically water is just another chemical with a unique set of properties. <li>Simple structure <li>Low molecular weight <li>Polar molecule disolves polar solutes - The water molecule is an isosceles 105 degree triangle. The hydrogen bonding gives the molecule both ionized and covalent states for structural integrity. With its unusually high dipole moment, water is sometimes called a universal solvent because it surrounds each solute ion with a polar shell, shielding them from the electrostatic forces of other ions. <li>Water has the highest surface tension of any liquid except mercury. <li>Water's cohesion from hydrogen binding each of four neighboring water moleculesmost of the time. <li>Highest specific heat of any liquid moderates temperature fluctuations, increasing usefullness as a habitat. Aids in an organism's homeostasis. <li>Highest heat of fusion and vaporization moderates environments, again providing a suitable habitat. <li>Water remains liquid over a wider temperature range than most other substances. Since metabolism requires a liquid environment for the exchange of ions, this gives life a better shot than other solvents. <li>At the phase change of heat of fusion at STP, water is one of the only substances that is less dense as a solid than as a liquid. This unusual property insulates water from freezing solid when the temperature temporarily drops below the freezing point, such as our winter. Without this property freezing would go clear to the bottom of the environment, an environment hostile to life. The ice on the surface insulates the water undneath from further</li></li></li></li></li></li></li></li></li></ul>

mcbethcg · Nov 27, 2004

You could list a hundred unique characteristics regarding any other chemical, with their different qualities, and say that THAT particular chemical is unique..... i.e- the chemical we know as gasoline has: Complex structure High Molecular weight etc.. But as far as this topic goes- what would happen to a ball of water in space, physically, I'm right. It would evaporate or boil, and create an atmosphere of water vapor, which would hang around due to gravity.

silylene old · Nov 27, 2004

You know, a ball of liquid ammonia in space would be real cool too. Especially if it had a little sodium dissolved in it, it would be a deep Prussian blue color...a little more sodium dissolved would give a beautiful bronze. Other dissolved metals give other amazing colors. A planet of liquid ammonia could be the most beautiful sphere in the universe. Ammonia is the one solvent whose properties are even more interesting than water. And arguably, NH3(liq) is the solvent most likely to support life (other than water). ...but this is the subject for another thread. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

A ball of water the size of the earth

kmarinas86

Guest

igorsboss

Guest

kmarinas86

Guest

odysseus145

Guest

odysseus145

Guest

igorsboss

Guest

bobvanx

Guest

bobvanx

Guest

robnissen

Guest

Saiph

Guest

Maddad

Guest

rogers_buck

Guest

bobvanx

Guest

Maddad

Guest

nexium

Guest

Maddad

Guest

cosmictraveler

Guest

mcbethcg

Guest

centsworth_II

Guest

Saiph

Guest

Maddad

Guest

mcbethcg

Guest

Maddad

Guest

mcbethcg

Guest

silylene old

Guest

Similar threads

TRENDING THREADS

Latest posts

Share this page