A CIVILIZATION on MARS? 1B/200M Years Ago? (Pt. 2)

[maxtheknife]

HEY!!!! ~~~LOUD APPLAUSE!!~~~<br /><br />Thanks, Telfrow! Really.... you're alright. Way to come through.... <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[maxtheknife]

Do you keep mentioning Plait just to piss me off?<br /><br />Defend him, if you dare....point by point.

 

[maxtheknife]

WOW, Telf...I'm really floored.... I think I need a vacation now!<br /><br />I'm at least takin' a long break before I tackle this! lolol <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[bobw]

I don't suppose you think the laser altimeter one is 'facey' enough either, do you? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[mental_avenger]

<font color="yellow"> That has got to be the absolute LAMEST and MOST PATHETIC excuse I've ever heard for the Catbox fiasco..... </font><br /><br />My comment was not about the so-called “catbox” image, it was referenced to ALL the images sent back by all the Mars orbiters. Your hysterical reaction is totally inconsistent with my comment. You really need to get a grip.<br /><br /><font color="yellow"> You're suggesting that it is up to the public, the majority of who don't know the first thing about the FOM let alone the other nearby enigmas </font><br /><br />Thank you for confirming my earlier contention that the majority of the public don’t know (and therefore don’t care) about the Cydonia mesa. As for other “nearby enigmas”, that is only an opinion, and a very minor (as well as unsupported) opinion at that.<br /><br /><font color="yellow"> …….to view an image that has been STRIPPED of it's detail ……... </font><br /><br />You have it exactly backwards. MOC22003 image was never “stripped” of anything, it was simply not enhanced as much as some other images. There is a MAJOR difference there. Your “stripped” comment shows your extreme bias and willingness to misrepresent almost anything in an attempt to validate your belief system. In any case, NASA proceeded to post other images, more enhanced and more like the “pretty pictures” that you guys seem to prefer.<br /><br /><font color="yellow"> It contains even less common sense than your other ridiculous assertions. </font><br /><br />You mean…… like the one you just confirmed about the general public? <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />Look, I’m not the one claiming to see things that aren’t there, you are. And you call MY assertions ridiculous? Good grief.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p style="margin-top:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2" color="#ff0000"><strong>Our Solar System must be passing through a Non Sequitur area of space.</strong></font></p> </div>

 

[telfrow]

That view has always intrigued me. I think it clearly shows that the left side (in this photo) surface of the mesa collapsed, almost in place. Leaving aside the argument (which I know will be raised at some point to advance the “hidden library” theory) that the structure is “hollow,” what does that say about the underlying geology of the mesa? <br /><br />I looked through the MOC images, and there is another mesa not far from the FOM that shows the same indications of collapse. Any ideas as to what could cause this? <br /><br />Jon? Anyone?<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[bobw]

<font color="yellow"> Any ideas as to what could cause this?</font><br /><br />I'm more of an artist than a geologist (I haven't got a clue) but, going by JonClarke's diagram of the Mayan warrior mesa, it looks a lot to me like mantled slopes. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[yevaud]

Telfrow: That's in part why I'd asked Jon Clarke if he thought there'd been outgassing and catastrophic outflow on the slopes of the "Face," during those all-too-brief periods of warming.<br /><br />I'd think that a pocket of ice beneath the surface, properly warmed, could suddenlt flow, and carry away a lot of material. It's explain some of the subsidance too. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[telfrow]

<font color="yellow">That's in part why I'd asked Jon Clarke if he thought there'd been outgassing and catastrophic outflow on the slopes of the "Face," during those all-too-brief periods of warming.</font><br /><br />Guess I missed it...I was probably preoccupied at the time. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> I'll go back and re-read the posts. Thanks.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[telfrow]

For some reason, the second paragraph of your post didn't show up until I tried to reply. Here it is:<br /><br />Edit: <i>Never mind. It's there now.</i><br /><br />Thanks for the information. Somehow, as I said earlier, I guess I missed all this (too focused on the other aspects of the debate)...I'll re-read the thread...from the beginning. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

1) I don't own NASA<br />2) Yes <br />3) You do<br /><br />Jon<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

I think the main difference between the left and right side of the "face" mesa is that the rough is mantled. beneath the mantling I think it is just as rough as the left side. I don't think it is more.<br /><br />As for the "Mayan" mesa, it certainly is more eroded on the right side, with large alcoves. There are a whole range of processes with this. Whether there is a regional preference for the left (eastern) side to be so eroded I don't know. One would have to do a regional survey of such features on all the mesas in the region.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

cs<br /><br />Please address the question I have asked you - why do you think the mesa is symmetrical?<br /><br />Personal attacks on me and defending Carlotto are not addressing this fundamental question relevant to your position.<br /><br />Some of my papers have been well criticised, perhaps deservedly so. This is part of the process, some has doubless been deserved. Nobody as said the peer review process was flawed though. But then I have not done a Carlotto - published a paper outside my field of expertise in an irrelevant journal. If I were to publish a paper on emergency medicine in a field ecology journal, the paper and the journal would be rightly regarded as suspect.<br /><br />I know what Carlotto's papers are about. I have read them and it is my professional judgment that they he has no knowledge about how to interpret planetary imagery. How is this contempible? I suspect what you find contemptible is that I have the gall to disagree with Carlotto.<br /><br />So come clean, what is it about the "face" that convinces you it is artificial? What is your expertise to make a scientific judgement on this? <br /><br />If you don't answer the hree questions I have posed then I (and others) will be free to conclude that 1) you have no evidence for symmetry, 2) you have no evidence for artificiality, and 3) you have no expertise to judge scientfific research.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[telfrow]

As always, thanks Jon. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[mental_avenger]

Jon,<br />You’re expecting a lot from the guy who thinks that JPL considers the Cydonia Mesa to be a political problem rather than a scientific one.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p style="margin-top:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2" color="#ff0000"><strong>Our Solar System must be passing through a Non Sequitur area of space.</strong></font></p> </div>

 

[maxtheknife]

Excuse, me for interrupting, but what is it w/ you and symmetry? Why are fixated on it? I've already addressed it.... <br /><br />You've the worst case of selective memory I've ever seen..... <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

 

[bobw]

Is that what you were doing when you showed that the face could look like a lion or a crater in Utah if it looked different than it does? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[najab]

><i>Excuse, me for interrupting, but what is it w/ you and symmetry? Why are fixated on it?</i><p>Uhm...maybe it's because one of the main criteria that identifies something as possibly being artificial is regularity or better still a high degree of symmetry?<p>><i>I've already addressed it...</i><p>No. You evaded it, much like you have ignored or skirted around every point that shows your 'theory' to be without merit.</p></p></p>

 

[JonClarke]

Hi Max<br /><br />Why I am fixated on it? Because the supposed symmetry of the feature is is a linch pin of the arguement for artificiality by people like Carlotto (who mentions it many times in his 1988 paper for example). As I have shown, and indeed has you have yourself, this symmetry is utterly lacking in the mesa.<br /><br />Cs_specialist has asserted that this symmetry exists, therefore I am quite entitled to ask him to demonstrate it.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[maxtheknife]

Evaded you say? Hardly.... No reply to this post in Part 1....<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Jon- "From a scientific approach it does not matter whether you start from an assumption of the mesa being natural or artifical." <br /><br />WRONG. Everything that is exposed in the Martian enviornment is subject to geological forces. Hence, you will find plenty of evidence to support a geological model. We can apply the same method, if you'd like, to the (I liked this) Gizamids or Teotihuacan and prove them natural....especially since we lack the means to replicate them. <br /><br />In order to tackle the question of artificiality, you need to start looking for the eyes, headdress, et al.... You need to start looking for relevant archology near by. You need to start looking at ALL the relevant questions. <br /><br />I answered your hang up about symmetry. The base platform is OBVIOUSLY symmetric...ask any 5th grader. You'll get an unbiased and objective answer. That the face isn't symmetric is irrelevant. Ask the same 5th grader if it's a face....It's a face. Do you think you may just be a little biased in your approach? <br /><br />In response to Leovinus...Highways??? You don't live on the East Coast, do you? One snow storm and, POOF! They're gone. Want more buildings? Why do you think the scientists in Egypt have to DIG? The stuff has been buried over the years.... It's amazing that the enigmas at Cydonia are exposed to the degree they are. <br /><br />We DID NOT find extant intelligence....we found the remains of extinct or vacated intelligence. Go ahead, Naj....How old might these ruins be? <br /><br />I'm not dodging anything....You are. You're biased in your approach to the question and you refuse to 'stand on the desk' for a fresh perspective. (Dead Poet's refrence) <br /><br />From an unbiased, artistic point of view, the FOM has PASSED every test we've thrown at it. Well, except for the lips....we could use your help w/ that, Jon. <br /><br />You're the one not answering the ques</font>

 

[thechemist]

Leo - You got the face on beans ! Now one question remains: Is it artificial ?<br /><br />Colin - See Leo's post. <br /><br />I never thought I would say, that, but, I've reached that point of no return:<br /><br />Can someone nuke this thread ?<br />Thank you. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>I feel better than James Brown.</em> </div>

 

[Leovinus]

Bill Frist can! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[votefornimitz]

Ok, so something odly resemble a face on Mars, how can you get 90 pages of arquement out of that. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <span style="color:#993366">In the event of a full scale nuclear war or NEO impact event, there are two categories of underground shelters available to the public, distinguished by depth underground: bunkers and graves...</span> </div>

 

[najab]

More like 180 pages if your count in the first segment of the thread. *sigh*

 

[najab]

This thread has (yet again) gotten too large. Please use this thread to continue the 'discussion'.