A CIVILIZATION on MARS? 1B/200M Years Ago? (Pt. 2)

telfrow · May 24, 2005

I want everyone to answer those 3 questions: cs_ and Max and Jon and Yevaud and Telfrow and Naja... EVERYONE...... [Whispering to Yevaud: If we answer this, is it considering "stalking"? <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />] <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

maxtheknife · May 24, 2005

1) We OWN Nasa. Does anyone here disagree with that? Yes we definitely own a piece of NASA. I get proof every week on my pay stub. 2) We obviously CARE about Cydonia. Does anyone here disagree with that? I can't speak for the skeptics on board, but to say that I care deeply about Cydonia and it's implications is an understatement. 3) We have the right to COMMUNICATE with our government. Does anyone here disagree with that? Not only do we have the right, it's our responsibility.

yevaud · May 24, 2005

What was it Gollum said in the animated movie, "The Hobbit?" "SNEAKING??!!" <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

telfrow · May 24, 2005

Telfrow: Okay, Max, I’ll play. I don’t believe it’s anything other than a highly eroded mountain or mesa, and I’ll probably regret this, but I’ll play. Max: Telfrow, I've been thinking about you and this post. The first thing that hit me was that your answers are just plain wrong. Carlotto estimated the age of the FOM @ approx. 25k, 30k yo.....RCH, 500k yo. I'll give you that much.... [Shakes head; sighs] Okay, now I regret it. RCH, shortly after the discovery of the “FOM,” did estimate the age at 300K. I’ll see if I can find the quote. You asked me to answer the question, I did. Second, they didn't use erosion models at all. Do you want to try again? Hint.... MesoAmerican....Solstical..... You’re talking about Torun/ Becker and Hagen and “circumscribed tetrahedral geometry”? Seriously? I traced the FOM from a good and reasonable vantage point. I didn't trace it while zoomed in on just the human eye. The posts illustrated the point, Max. From a distance, you traced the area of the eye based on what you thought you saw…when, in reality, most of the “lines” you traced you aren’t there when you begin to examine the area in detail. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

yevaud · May 24, 2005

That's one of the reasons I suggested what I did. Get rid of whatever is spurious to this debate, and find those things that are truly anomolous. Instead of debating endless minutae... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

telfrow · May 24, 2005

And I agree with you. It would be nice to be able to take it an issue at a time, but, as we've seen in the other threads, the discussion gets derailed on a regular basis. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

najab · May 24, 2005

>Get rid of whatever is spurious to this debate, and find those things that are truly anomolous.Hmm...well if we discuss only those things that are anomalous to the idea that the Cydonia region is natural, that would leave us...er...um... *NOTHING*!

yevaud · May 24, 2005

Well, if after careful consideration that's what the end result is, then ok. Just right now, there's too many issues all going around and around. Too chaotic. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

najab · May 24, 2005

So I take it you still haven't found anything to back up your claim that I made ad hominem attacks towards you? I hope you realise that claiming someone is attacking you personally, without any evidence to back up that claim is, in itself, an ad hominem attack.

mental_avenger · May 24, 2005

Zen says: Let's face it folks. We (the American taxpayers who pay for the missions) want to know about Cydonia. Most Americans are unaware of the Cydonia region of Mars, let alone the mesa in question. We, the American taxpayers as a group, care very little about it. Granted, there are a few, very few extremely vocal enthusiasts that make a great fuss over that mesa and the NASA images, but those are a very small minority. Even on SDC, which has a membership of some 10,000(?), there are only about a dozen interested in this discussion, and half of those think the mesa is a natural formation. Zen says: We have generated HUNDREDS of pages, THOUSANDS of posts on the subject of verification or dismissal of the Artificiality Hypotheses. Most of these post prove nothing at all, simply because there is not enough data to work with. Zen says: We are a PERFECT slice of space-conscious citizens Far from it, those in this and similar discussions are highly non-representative of the general population. Zen says: WHEN? When are we going to get our hearing by the NASA we have bought and paid for? NASA has a charter and mandate to map the entire surface of Mars, and that is what they are doing. To NASA’s credit, they did go out of their way to take extra images of Cydonia in response to an extremely loud, very very small minority. Zen says: 1) We OWN Nasa. Does anyone here disagree with that? NASA works for the people of the US, ALL of them. They are responsible to EVERYONE, not the fringe minorities. Zen says: 2) We obviously CARE about Cydonia. Does anyone here disagree with that? While YOU may care, the vast majority of the people wh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Our Solar System must be passing through a Non Sequitur area of space. </div>

maxtheknife · May 24, 2005

Telfrow.... First, if RCH did say 300k at first (he may have, i'm not too sure), he modified it to 500k and w/ good reason. Carlotto, as far as I know, hasn't changed his estimation of 25k - 30k yo. Second, I'm referring to key relationships at Cydonia, yes. But not necessarily how they relate to one another as much as how they relate/related to key astronomical events....such as a summer solstice. Check out some megalithic sites on Earth and tell me if there might be some way we can compare and contrast what we see at Cydonia to those sites. Then tell me if there is a way to extrapolate and estimate an age for these potential ruins. Third, if you don't see the clear almond shaped eye, iris and pupil, I'll have to refer you once again to the dictionary's definition of denial.... Even Leovinus couldn't help but trace the lower portion of the almond shape and capture the pupil. As a matter of fact, I can see on the edge of the eye what could be construed as eyelashes. But let's drop this part for now.....Zen might have some ideas to help us stay in focus. Have you answered Zen's questions yet?

yevaud · May 24, 2005

Since I became aware of these arguments about 5 years ago, I have always been mildly amused at the arrogance of the <1% minority thinking they have the right to dictate policy to a multi-billion dollar government agency. I only wish it were that easy... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

najab · May 24, 2005

>Since I became aware of these arguments about 5 years ago, I have always been mildly amused at the arrogance of the <1% minority thinking they have the right to dictate policy to a multi-billion dollar government agency. This is bad enough, but the recent threads on Iapetus indicate that they also think they can dictate the Laws of Orbital Mechanics as well, and turn space probes around to take another look.

zenonmars · May 24, 2005

Avenger said, "NASA has a charter and mandate to map the entire surface of Mars, and that is what they are doing. To NASA’s credit, they did go out of their way to take extra images of Cydonia in response to an extremely loud, very very small minority" Oh, but in fact they did. MA: "While YOU may care, the vast majority of the people who pay for NASA do not particularly care about the Cydonia Mesa and are actually unaware of the “controversy” you are immersed in...I have always been mildly amused at the arrogance of the <1% minority thinking they have the right to dictate policy to a multi-billion dollar government agency." Well, Michael Malin disagrees: "It is planned to try to acquire images of the "Face" and other features in Cydonia. Contrary to what some people have said and written, this has been the plan for some time. This plan was not established in response to outside pressure; rather, there are two reasons for acquiring these images. First, given the interest in the general public about the "Face," it is appropriate to acquire such images for public relations purposes, especially since the public interest has been generated in no small way by the people who claim there is a conspiracy at NASA to withhold information from the public. Second, there are valid scientific reasons to examine landforms in the area (which, after all, is why the Viking spacecraft were photographing the area in the first place)." <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

mental_avenger · May 24, 2005

MA, please define "clear image of a tool or other undeniably artificial object" Isn’t plain English good enough any more? Your being deliberately obtuse does not help this discussion. While “clear image” is somewhat subjective, if anyone here posts an image of an artifact, and everyone agrees that it is a “clear” image, then we can safely call it a clear image. BTW, for someone who is being so pedantic about the NASA images, and placing so much stock in image processing, you apparently cannot even figure out something as incredibly basic as how to limit the pixel width when posting an image. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Our Solar System must be passing through a Non Sequitur area of space. </div>

mental_avenger · May 24, 2005

Well, Michael Malin disagrees: Try not to confuse diplomacy with fact. Any “public awareness” that is observed by NASA or anyone else is the result of an extreme minority that is 100,000 times more vocal than those who are unaware or don’t care. (for obvious reasons). Over the years I have asked those around me what they think about the Cydonia Mesa. This has included 12 year-old kids, to adults of all ages, professions, and interests. Only one person had even heard of it, and he didn’t know much about it. I asked them about the “face” on Mars. 4 or 5 had heard of it, none knew what it consisted of, or that there was a controversy. Of course, that’s only a small sample, maybe 300 or so people. The point is, no matter how you look at it, only a very small number of people know any specifics about the Cydonia Mesa, and even fewer care much about it. It’s rather a subculture. If you aren’t involved in the subculture, you may not even be aware that it exists. However, to those involved in that subculture, it is often a major part of their life. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Our Solar System must be passing through a Non Sequitur area of space. </div>

maxtheknife · May 24, 2005

MA, please chill..... It was an honest question.... How many rocks in your backyard have flat sides w/ square holes cut into them? Isn't this a good candidate for an artifact? Everyone,,,,and I mean EVERYONE I've shown it to believes that it is. How hard would it have been to take a peak inside the square hole? How difficult would it have been to try and remove some of the sand that seems to be covering the two exposed features? Not much....not much at all. Like I said, it was late and I was tired when posting. I'll try to be more carefull next time I post a pic of a potential artificial artifact on the surface of Mars that NASA just passed on by.....

maxtheknife · May 24, 2005

Oh, and BTW, MA..... I was watching the Science channel, in HD, on my 57" widescreen tv when they were showing the pancam images from the Spirit rover..... That slot rock was as clear as day on my screen....Flat sides, square hole and all.

bobw · May 24, 2005

Here's a good website about the MOC picture from April 5, 1998. It is amazing when you look at the raw picture. It is just a gray blank. They show several intermediate and other processing steps. http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/4_6_98_face_release/ Here's a quarter scale copy of raw.gif just to keep things in perspective. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

mental_avenger · May 24, 2005

MA, please chill..... It was an honest question.... How many rocks in your backyard have flat sides w/ square holes cut into them? I don’t know, I haven’t had the time to look at all 10 million of them. In any case, your question is disingenuous because it attempts to infer that, unless the SAME feature can be found in my driveway, it must be artificial. I have rocks in my driveway with features that are just as regular or just as unusual, but not square. That is the same fallacious argument I have heard over and over about the Cydonia Mesa. Rather than require a natural feature on Earth with equivalent anomalous features, they require a natural feature that looks like a human face that is looking directly skyward. If there isn’t one of THOSE on Earth, it is proof to them that the Cydonia Mesa is artificial. Isn't this a good candidate for an artifact? Everyone,,,,and I mean EVERYONE I've shown it to believes that it is. Interesting. It looks like a rock to me. Perhaps NASA should have taken another look, but it’s too late now. I’m sure they had their reasons. However, I don’t believe for an instant that NASA is trying to hide anything. After all, they didn’t have to present that image in the first place. I am certain that they have the technical expertise to effectively and seamlessly hide any image they don’t want the public to see, IF that was their agenda. That fact that the image showed up at all proves they are not hiding data. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Our Solar System must be passing through a Non Sequitur area of space. </div>

mental_avenger · May 24, 2005

Thanks Bob. There are still some people who think that the orbiters send “pretty pictures” back to Earth. Few are aware of the extensive processing that must be used to make the images look like photographs. Incidentally, the 2001 Odyssey Themis camera is a 1024 x 1024 digital camera. It takes a push-broom type image across the surface in a 20 km (12 mile)wide path. The resolution (single pixel size) represents about 18 meters (59 feet) on the surface. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Our Solar System must be passing through a Non Sequitur area of space. </div>

telfrow · May 24, 2005

As a matter of fact, I can see on the edge of the eye what could be construed as eyelashes. But let's drop this part for now..... If you're starting to see eyelashes, Max, it is time to move on. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

telfrow · May 24, 2005

Zen: 1) Yes. 2) Yes. 3) Yes. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

telfrow · May 24, 2005

Max: I told you I'd post some of my old tracings if I could find any of them. I'll keep my word. Here's an old one, cleaned up a bit in PhotoShop. See? Before I started enlarging the areas in question (i.e., depending on other people's work, not my own) I saw the same things you do. I post it to make the following point: when you start working with the MOC images (not blurred or over-enhanced versions) and enlarge the areas in question, those "lines" you thought were there just aren't there anymore. BTW, I answered your questions...and kept my word by posting some of my (very) old "work." Now please answer my previous questions. In the enlargement I showed of the eye, where are the features creating the line you drew from Point A to Point B, Point B to Point C, Point E to Point A, and Point A to Point F? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

maxtheknife · May 24, 2005

MA: There are still some people who think that the orbiters send “pretty pictures” back to Earth. Few are aware of the extensive processing that must be used to make the images look like photographs. That has got to be the absolute LAMEST and MOST PATHETIC excuse I've ever heard for the Catbox fiasco..... You're suggesting that it is up to the public, the majority of who don't know the first thing about the FOM let alone the other nearby enigmas, to view an image that has been STRIPPED of it's detail to assertain whether or not it really is a face. Please stop defending NASA's Catbox press release w/ this argument....It contains even less common sense than your other ridiculous assertions. Sometimes the best defense is to plead the 5th. No matter how immoral that may be.

A CIVILIZATION on MARS? 1B/200M Years Ago? (Pt. 2)

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