A CIVILIZATION on MARS? 1B/200M Years Ago? (Pt. 2)

Leovinus · May 23, 2005

For comparison, here's a recent picture of Mimas. I took the liberty of drawing in the eye to help you see it. The caption at the JPL web site where I got this picture reads "Mimas stares back". <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · May 23, 2005

cs, once again you critcising what I posted without dealing with it direectly. You wrote: "You've demonstrated no comprehension of what any of Carlotto's analyses are about, so I don't take your testimonials very seriously. But if you want to believe proclamations supposrted by dubious line drawings, that's OK with me." It is ironic that proclamations and pubious drawinms is exactly what most of us believe Carlotto is guilty of. That aside, once again, what is it that you disgarfee about my analysis. My drawings identified scree slopes, alcoves, mantled slopes, erosional terraces and benches, plains. Are you saying you can't see these features in the images? Or that you disagree with where the boundaries are? Engage the data and its interpretation, don't just wave your arms. Jon " <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

maxtheknife · May 23, 2005

ROFL,,,, Thanx, Leo.... I needed the laugh <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

JonClarke · May 23, 2005

Max Mate, who wrote: "I mean Jon still thinks there's a Dusk image of the FOM....." What do you mean by this? What dusk image? "He hasn't answered half of my questions. I've answered all of his." I have certainly answred some of yours, about the "tholus" for example. As I have asked before, sten me an itemised list of questions, rather than budything them in a cloud of rhetoric and I will address them. Lastly: "I should add that I've been more patient than he was while waiting for the answers to my questions. Mostly because I know he CAN'T answer them." That's is not true and you know it. Give me the list, put up or shut up, as the saying is. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

telfrow · May 23, 2005

Right....after how many years? Telfrow, how old might the FOM be? How was the age of the FOM estimated? Lastly,,,, What would you propose the optimum viewing distance would be for such a massive sculpture? You questions presuppose it is a "massive sculpture." As should be clear by now, I do not believe it is anything other than an eroded mountain or mesa. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

maxtheknife · May 23, 2005

Jon, what's it gonna take for you to hear us? Listen closely..... WE AGREE THERE'S EROSION!!!!!....The enigmas in question have been sitting out in the Martian enviornment for how many years? Tell me, I need to know that you've at least considered the potential age of these ruins. From a geologists point of view, can you extrapolate and describe what our own Gizamids will look like from orbit in X,Y, or Z years? Assuming there's no one here to care for them.....

maxtheknife · May 23, 2005

You don't need to believe it to answer the question, do you?

JonClarke · May 23, 2005

Yes, at least, that is one of the popular models for martian hostory. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

telfrow · May 23, 2005

You beat me to it, Leo. But here's my version anyway... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

yevaud · May 23, 2005

Oh, sorry. I meant specifically, the FOM. I'm not highly, only partially experienced in the geological aspects of this, although I understand the Remote Sensing, ananlysis, GIS end of it quite well. So are these two a possible major effect in sculpting the terrain? (This would actually answer a related concept I have, which is why I'm being specific). Edit: should have studied more Hydrogeography... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

JonClarke · May 23, 2005

Max Unless they are complete eroded away one would still expect artificial structures to show basic features pointing to their artificiality, In the case of the pyramids you would would see a high level of rectalinearity, symmetry, composition from any modular units, association with quarries, other similar constructs, etc. Similar features have been proposed for Cydonia but, and this is the critical point, the Cydonia region lacks these features. There is no unusual symmetry, rectalinearity, etc. So what reason have we got to say that these features are artificial? None. Any other questions you want addressed? Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

telfrow · May 23, 2005

Okay, Max, I’ll play. I don’t believe it’s anything other than a highly eroded mountain or mesa, and I’ll probably regret this, but I’ll play. How old might the FOM be? RCH, I believe, has estimated the age at 300,000 years. I also seen “several hundred thousand” years suggested. How was the age of the FOM estimated? I assume the estimates were made based on the effects of erosion. However, if the age of the “structure” is 300,000 years, it’s too late in the planet’s history to involve water. So whatever erosion did take place must have involved wind/sand and expansion/contraction due to temperature variations. And I have no idea at what rate that process would effect the appearance of a “structure,” although I would believe the process would be much slower. Maybe Jon can offer an opinion. Lastly,,,, What would you propose the optimum viewing distance would be for such a massive sculpture? This site might help you answer that question: http://earth.jsc.nasa.gov/sseop/efs/ <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

mental_avenger · May 23, 2005

Ok, MA.... How would you phrase the question in light of the data that has been presented? Please answer after you've rephrased..... OK, now we are getting somewhere. Your original question was vague in that it asked ” What would it take to convince you in light of...." I will assume that you intended to mean “What would it take to convince you that there was an advanced civilization on Mars”. If that is incorrect, please let me know. Question: What would it take to convince you that there was an advanced civilization on Mars, given what we currently know? I don’t believe that it will be possible to acquire enough information from the instruments we now have deployed to Mars to make a definitive determination. The orbiters simply don’t have a high enough resolution to identify small artifacts, and are otherwise limited in what kind of information they can supply. The rovers are too small and limited. They don’t have the heavy tools and instruments to perform the necessary test to make such a determination. We need rovers that can do precise seismic tests. We need rovers that can take a core sample of the ground down to at least 10 feet, but hopefully down to 30 feet. They need the ability to do the kinds of testing that would make sure we don’t miss anything relevant. Bottom line, short of a clearly identifiable artifact, such as a tool imaged by a rover, it is unlikely that we will ever have enough data from the current array of instrumentation. Meanwhile, NASA is following its mandate to map the entire surface of Mars. When that is done, we should have a better handle on the best locations to land some REAL rovers. Nothing I have seen so far has convinced me that the infamous mesa on Cydonia should be given any preference in site choice, unless it was to stop the incessant squealing from the artificiality wheel. What would convince me? Hard da <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Our Solar System must be passing through a Non Sequitur area of space. </div>

silylene old · May 23, 2005

"Holly giant butt-cheeks from outer space, Batman!" Silylene is a guy thanks TheChemist... Yevaud, 'silylene' is a reactive and interesting chemical species, R2Si: Let me simply say this is subject of chemistry I made a mark in 20+yrs ago. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

maxtheknife · May 23, 2005

MA: Any questions? Yes, too many. But I'll work w/ it. The only real problem I have w/ the question is how you define advanced. Can you define your version of advanced civilization? Second. You say, I don’t believe that it will be possible to acquire enough information from the instruments Such as.... a tool imaged by a rover Well, how about a componant that was machined by a tool? Would that suffice? When they imaged this possible artifact, NASA decided to simply drive on by.... MA wants artifacts.... NASA drives by artifacts.... Does this bother you at all MA?

maxtheknife · May 23, 2005

Telfrow, you're full of surprises! I didn't expect this,,,, I need to sleep on it. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

telfrow · May 23, 2005

OMG, here we go...machine parts on Mars. What? No links to the site? Allow me, Max: http://www.enterprisemission.com/spirit.htm http://www.enterprisemission.com/images/Spirit/PIA05102-2.jpg <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

yevaud · May 23, 2005

How about the ass-end of a 50's Chevy, with the fins... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

telfrow · May 23, 2005

I don't why not...they seem to have found everything else. Maybe the "parts" are from a blown engine...<img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

zenonmars · May 23, 2005

Jon, You said, "a high level of rectalinearity, symmetry, composition from any modular units, association with quarries, other similar constructs, etc. Similar features have been proposed for Cydonia but, and this is the critical point, the Cydonia region lacks these features" Does it? Nobody wants to deal with the dust-penetrating Themis images. Processing arguments aside, the rectiliniar nature of these data sets show IMMENSE redundant geometry. The Face Themis image is highly evident of construction panels. The Mars Odyssey 2001 infrared/visible light composites that created so much controversy across the internet, show absolutely STUNNING rectilinear patterning. (See below). Before I re-ignite this war of opinions about these images, I beg all readers to consider the Russian 1989 data from Phobos2 which show the identical architecture. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

yevaud · May 23, 2005

Perhaps a couple of weathered Golden Arches: "over 1 quintillion served today..." <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

zenonmars · May 23, 2005

Here are the links to the full-size images, in case you want to take a good up-close look: http://www.enterprisemission.com/ir_images.html http://www.enterprisemission.com/images/IR/CYDONIA-PHOBOS-COMPARE.jpg <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

telfrow · May 23, 2005

Or a Starbuck's...they're everywhere. Why not Mars? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

yevaud · May 23, 2005

What, 20 year-old Martians, with tat's and piercings, selling you flavored water for $3.00? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

telfrow · May 23, 2005

<img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

A CIVILIZATION on MARS? 1B/200M Years Ago? (Pt. 2)

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