A CIVILIZATION on MARS? 1B/200M Years Ago? (Pt. 2)

[telfrow]

You forgot the last line, cs:<br /><br /><i>Read those eight sentences in the context of the rest of the report and keep the historical context in mind as you read it. It makes a difference.</i><br /><br />The historical context is critical. If you'd like to focus on that, we can.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[thechemist]

Why not return to the original thread subject for a change, it is clear nobody will back off about the FOM.<br />Hypothesis : There was a civilization on Mars 1B/200M years ago.<br />Other than civil infrastructure on the surface or buried underground (which excludes FOM, pyramids etc.), what other <b>measurable or testable</b> evidence are we expecting to find in order to support such a claim ?<br /><br />Example:<br />I guess a nuclear-capable civilization would have left radioactive signatures traceable ion soil samples, or in the atmosphere/the poles.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>I feel better than James Brown.</em> </div>

 

[najab]

><i>It's kind of ironic that "professional" geology involves drawing lines on pictures that don't seem to correspond to anything in the image, at least to non-geologists.</i><p>And that's why they go to university and grad school for many, many years and why they get paid thousands of dollars by mineral prospecting companies - because they have been trained to see the subtle but important thing that you or I would dismiss. A trained geologist can find water in the middle of the desert by studying aerial photographs that you or I would dismiss as showing nothing but endless expanse of barren terrain.<p>I'll take JonClarke's anaylsis of the Cydonia region over yours or Carlotto's any day.<p>><i>You learn something every day.</i><p>We all hear new things every day - some of us learn, some of us don't.</p></p></p></p>

 

[maxtheknife]

<font color="yellow">You're a moderator, so nobody's going to delete them. As Mel Brooks once said, it's GOOD to be king, isn't it? </font><br /><br />Lol....'Oh, piss boy!'....'It IS good to be the King!'<br /><br />Both parts played by one and the same...Mel Brooks <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[najab]

><i>But feel free to continue your ad hominem attacks. You're a moderator, so nobody's going to delete them.</i><p>Incorrect. Since you are of the opinion that I'm attacking you:<ol type="&quot;a&quot;"><li>Take up your complaint with the other moderators: Betelgeuse, CalliArcale, Leovinus and Rhodan (click this link to get links to their profiles from where you can send them a PM). All the moderators have the ability to edit each other's posts.<li>Or, if you prefer, email the thoughts@hq.space.com with your complaint.<li>Or you can make a post in the Obscenity / Ad hominem moderation thread.</li></li></li></ol>You have the links, please either use them or stop claiming that I'm attacking you. <br /><br />/* See -- I can edit his posts. */</p>

 

[maxtheknife]

At one point during this discussion Naj deleted my post asking where Jatslo is..... We're to trust Naj's judgment about what's ad hominem or not? He'd rather trust some guy that can't put together a full paragraph w/o typos or grammar errors over a peer reviewed published scientist like Carlotto.... <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <br /><br />Personally, I think Naj is in way over his head. But that's just my humble opinion.

 

[Leovinus]

Nobody likes having their posts edited. The best way to avoid that is to be polite to your fellow members. Throwing insults around and then crabbing at the moderators for doing their volunteer job isn't very productive. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[najab]

><i>At one point during this discussion Naj deleted my post asking where Jatslo is...</i><p>Since you bring this up again, let me explain once again what happened. You made a post that was critical of someone (I think it was Leo, but I'm not sure) and ended it with a comment asking "Where's jatslo?", which I took to be a comparison between jatslo and that poster. Any time someone's posts are compared to jatslo, someone is getting insulted (I still haven't figured out which one).<p>After you explained what you meant, I restored the post. End of story.<p>><i>He'd rather trust some guy that can't put together a full paragraph w/o typos or grammar errors over a peer reviewed published scientist like Carlotto.</i><p>FYI: JonClarke is also a published scientist. I'm sure, much like Carlotto, he uses a word processor to prepare his papers.<br />----------------------<br />Oh, by the way, that should be "errors in his grammar" or "gramatical errors" - "grammar errors" is bad grammar.</p></p></p></p>

 

[telfrow]

<font color="yellow">He'd rather trust some guy that can't put together a full paragraph w/o typos or grammar errors over a peer reviewed published scientist like Carlotto.... </font><br /><br />That shows a lot of class, Max. A lot of class. <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /><br /><br />http://aca.mq.edu.au/People/jclarke.htm <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[yevaud]

Thanks, Telfrow. After being verbally abused recently by some of these happy campers - and never getting any direct answer to my questions, receiving Ad-Hominems, and out-and-out lies, it's very satisfying to see the same people called to carpet...<br /><br />...for the same things they accused me of. Although, I don't actually *do* any those things. Very ironic. I never knew bold-faced lies and innuendos were an integral part of their "defense" of a topic, until now. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[maxtheknife]

Lol, Telfrow....cause and effect. Maybe had he traced the FOM as well as he traced the Fort, I wouldn't have jumped on him.<br /><br />Have any of you bashed RCH today? I think you're falling short of your quota....

 

[telfrow]

<font color="yellow">...cause and effect. Maybe had he traced the FOM as well as he traced the Fort, I wouldn't have jumped on him. <br /></font><br /><br />A very mature attitude my friend. How old are you again?<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[maxtheknife]

Notice the thread turned ugly as soon as the 'natural camp' was faced w/ the simple task of tracing the FOM.... How telling. <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

 

[najab]

Have you (a) sent a PM to another mod, (b) e-mailed the administrators or (c) posted a message in the Suggestions forum, to complain about my ad hominem attacks against you?<br /><br />If not, could you please either do so now or retract your accusation against me?

 

[yevaud]

Some basics of the science of Remote Sensing / Image Analysis:<br /><br />The identification of objects and determination of their significance involves: <br /><br /><b>Identification</b> - recognizing features on the image.<br /><br /><b>Measurement</b> - once features have been identified, can make measurements (i.e., the distance between objects, the number of features per unit area). <br /><br /><b>Interpretation</b> - normally based on a systematic examination of the primitive elements of the photograph, in conjunction with a wide range of ancillary data. <br /><br />Primitive elements include tone, color, size, shape, texture, pattern, shadow, site, association automated image analysis typically relies on only the first few primitive elements (tone, color, size) ancillary data are often very diverse, may include maps, vegetation phenologies, and many kinds of information about human activities in the general area human experts bring all these elements, plus their acquired skills and knowledge of related disciplines <font color="yellow">the best photointerpreters have expertise in such related disciplines as physical geography, geology and plant <br />biology and ecology.</font><br /> <br />Human interpretation also includes a significant perceptual or subjective component.<br /><br /><b>Classification</b><br /><br />The information obtained from a remote sensing instrument consists of reflectance measurements, often in several different bands or parts of the electromagnetic spectrum. Measurements are in discrete units with fixed range, e.g. 0-255.<br /><br />The process of classification, an important part of image interpretation, attempts to assign each pixel to one of a number of classes based on its reflectance in one or more bands e.g. vegetation types or land use classes ("urban", "pasture", "cropland", "water", "forested"). <br /><br />Many techniques exist for classification:<br /> <br />Supervised classification develops the rules for assigning reflectance measu <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[najab]

Have you (a) sent a PM to another mod, (b) e-mailed the administrators or (c) posted a message in the Suggestions forum, to complain about my ad hominem attacks against you?<br /><br />If not, could you please either do so now or retract your accusation against me?<br /><br />If you don't, I would like another mod to edit out your accusations against me.

 

[maxtheknife]

Are we talking about attitudes or conducting legitmate science in order to determine artificiality at Cydonia? I mean Jon still thinks there's a Dusk image of the FOM..... He hasn't answered half of my questions. I've answered all of his. I should add that I've been more patient than he was while waiting for the answers to my questions. Mostly because I know he CAN'T answer them.<br /><br />Rest assured, I'll never be as old as you, Telfrow....no matter how many times I go around the Sun. <br /><br />BTW, nice 'red soaked' pic of Mars on Jon's link... I guess the sky is red in his world.... <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /><br /><br />

 

[najab]

Either make a complaint or retract it.

 

[najab]

Max, either engage in legitmate discussion or stop posting.

 

[maxtheknife]

K.I.S.S., Yevaud.... If the FOM is artificial, it's a work of art.... Everyone seems to agree that my trace captures the FOM very well in it's obvious split faced rendering. It seems reasonable to me that if someone cannot see the Face w/o my trace, he should be able to trace the feature and reproduce my results. <br /><br />If you don't see the Face w/o my trace, do it yourself. You'll see there were no tricks involved. You're just as qualified as any geologist to look at the FOM and see it for what it really is... ART.

 

[yevaud]

Oh it is a piece of art. Just as the "Old Man of the Mountain" was. <br /><br />However, the point behind that verbiage on Remote Sensing was thanks to constant mention by my GIS (PCI and ArcView) teachers, who pointed out that you really have to be careful about the parameters of your classifications. It's very easy to interpret a shape or form into something it's not, and if you're too liberal, you can obtain things that aren't there.<br /><br />Which isn't saying it *isn't* there. Just be cautious. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[maxtheknife]

Define legitimate, please. If it's anything like your notion of legitimate science, legitimate evidence, legitimate conclusions et al,,,,, I may not be able to comply.....

 

[maxtheknife]

NOooooo, the old man is NOT art...it's a natural feature.

 

[maxtheknife]

Where's your tracing effort, Yevaud?

 

[maxtheknife]

Yevaud: <font color="yellow"> Just be cautious. </font><br /><br />I was cautious.... look at Telfrow's blow up of the eye.... I did pretty good, eh? Stayed on the line and everything.... <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />