A CIVILIZATION on MARS? 1B/200M Years Ago? (Pt. 3)

centsworth_II · May 26, 2005

"...we are only studying ourselves and our beliefs when we analyse the FOM." "Is that your original?" Ha ha! Yes, and feel free to improve on the wording. Although it may be an obvious and simple-minded philosophy, simple logic shines in comparison to the FOM arguments. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

najab · May 26, 2005

>Say, najaB..........care to clue ME in?Okay, I'll bite. You said "we do NOT have the data needed to determine the artificiality of the Face...This statement neatly encapsulates the reasons I cannot participate any more:<li>You presuppose that it is an artificial, rather than natural feature.<li>You are looking for the data that will confirm your supposition, rather than looking at the data and seeing what you can determine from it.<li>Having decided that it is artificial, you also have decided that it is a sculpture rather than an artificial structure that just happens to look like one.<li>You later go on to imply that NASA is deliberately withholding data - without even determining that there even is data to be withheld.<li>And finally you wrap your...'hypothesis' up in the guise of good science, all the time maligning and badmothing the efforts of dedicated, professional scientists who are conducting legitimate, methodological science on Mars, just because they have the good sense to call your 'God' RCH, the fraud (or delusional nutcase) that he is.</li></li></li></li></li>

maxtheknife · May 26, 2005

Jon, In your first paragraph, you still refuse to give the artificiality hypothesis a fair shake. Your only argument that the FOM isn't artificial is that it is asymmetrical and that the features in question (no $hit) can be explained by geological processes. Weak, very weak....here's why. Jon: The base of the feature is not symmetric, I have shown this and I will show it again: a mirror of the left right side departs significantly from the actual position on base on the left. This is fact, not the opinion of a 5th grader. Jon, is or is not the FOM the most NON-FRACTAL object in the area? Does or does this not lend credence to the AOC hypothesis? If you're going to be fair to the question, what would you propose a reasonable margin of error would be to satisfy your criteria for exact symmetry given the potential age of these ruins? Face it Jon,,,, It's close enough. But there's more evidence to consider and weigh..... Jon: Which tests Max? Rectilinearity? Failed. Symmetry? Failed. Looks like a face? Failed all but the most superficial examination. Evidence for unusual composition? Failed. How many tests to you want to come up with? 1. Rectilinearity? How is that even remotely a prerequisite for art? Rectilinearity was never a prerequisite for artificiality..... Symmetry of the base was, and given the potential age....again close enough to merit further investigation! 2. If my trace looks like a face, and Telfrow's trace looks like a face, It's a face! IT PASSED the 'is it really a face" test. Why wasn't your trace as good as Telfrow's? If you zoooomed in on say, the Mona Lisa.... how much would it look like a face? At a superficial glance, the Mona Lisa is a work of art....Up close, she's just a mess. 3. Unusual composition, failed???? HA! The evidence we have shows two halves of the face differing in texture....one side smooth, like gl

telfrow · May 26, 2005

Telfrow's trace looks like a face, It's a face! IT PASSED the 'is it really a face" test. Why wasn't your trace as good as Telfrow's? Hold it Max. Foul. Don't use my tracing to defend your position. I made it perfectly clear that tracing was done (many) years ago and I had since changed my position on the issue because I had conducted additional individual research. My position is - and has been for many years - that the FOM is really a heavily eroded mountain or mesa. I made that perfectly clear. I hesitated to post the tracing for exactly this reason. I now regret doing it. Honestly, I'm more than a little miffed you resorted to using something I provided as a personal favor to defend a position you know I disagree with. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

maxtheknife · May 26, 2005

Right.... good detailed response. <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

maxtheknife · May 26, 2005

Sorry, Telf.... that was the purpose of getting one of you to submit an honest trace. Submitted evidence is fair game.

yevaud · May 26, 2005

Max: Yes. In fact, I rather feel that everyone has positively contributed to the thread. But the problem I see is that the issue isn't being examined systematically enough. Rather like trying to determine what an individual tree is by looking at the entire forest. The issue (topic) is "A CIVILIZATION on MARS? 1B/200M Years Ago?" Now this means that an examination of the FOM is perfectly in keeping with it. If there was, in fact, a civilization there once, then any and all potential artifacts are fair game. The issue here is, "is this artificial?" But as long as the *entire* FOM is hashed around, nothing is really being accomplished. Gotta be systematic about it. Start hyper-analyzing each and every aspect of it, and either count or discount it. Eventually, at least you'll all have something common to agree on to debate. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

telfrow · May 26, 2005

Fair game? In spite of the fact I no longer defend the position? In spite of the fact I have rejected my earlier conclusions? In a way, you're right though. That trace does stand as evidence - evidence that if you investigate on your own and aren't "led" to conclusions, your position changes. If that's your definition of a "fair game," Max, then we are truly worlds apart. It was a cheap trick, my friend. And not appreciated. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

maxtheknife · May 26, 2005

Wanna talk about your 'God', Plait some more, Naj? Oh, that's right you haven't even begun to try to tackle my post about him.... <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Sitting out a few hundred posts will only help your argument..... You should consider doing so. Zen, they've filled the RCH bashing quota, yet again! Maybe we should start a Plait bashing effort to even the score.... Nah, totally unnecessary <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

maxtheknife · May 26, 2005

Yes, Telfrow....In spite of all that. Your trace is as accurate and valid as mine. We both traced all the lines and features from a reasonable viewing distance and angle. NONE of the other submissions were nearly as complete as ours. That's all we needed to do in order to confirm and appreciate the artistry in this massive relief carving. You're wise enough and should've known better if you didn't want to lend credence to the AOC argument. You submitted evidence. End of conversation. I didn't resort to a cheap trick. I simply used said evidence to illustrate my point. Not a trick....but a darn good tactic, eh? Want an example of a 'cheap trick'? How about the press release by NASA/JPL of the FOM in '98..... Now THAT'S a CHEAP TRICK.

telfrow · May 26, 2005

You submitted evidence. End of conversation. I didn't resort to a cheap trick. I simply used said evidence to illustrate my point. Not a trick....but a darn good tactic, eh? "Evidence" with an endless list of provisos. Good tactic? Not really. And you're right. End of conversation. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

telfrow · May 26, 2005

My 5/24 post with the old tracing: Max: I told you I'd post some of my old tracings if I could find any of them. I'll keep my word. Here's an old one, cleaned up a bit in PhotoShop. See? Before I started enlarging the areas in question (i.e., depending on other people's work, not my own) I saw the same things you do. I post it to make the following point: when you start working with the MOC images (not blurred or over-enhanced versions) and enlarge the areas in question, those "lines" you thought were there just aren't there anymore. BTW, I answered your questions...and kept my word by posting some of my (very) old "work." Now please answer my previous questions. In the enlargement I showed of the eye, where are the features creating the line you drew from Point A to Point B, Point B to Point C, Point E to Point A, and Point A to Point F? /b> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

mental_avenger · May 26, 2005

Jon, is or is not the FOM the most NON-FRACTAL object in the area? Does or does this not lend credence to the AOC hypothesis? Spoken like a true Carlottonian. Direct answer, no it does not (lend credence). 2. If my trace looks like a face, and Telfrow's trace looks like a face, It's a face! IT PASSED the 'is it really a face" test. It depends on what you trace. There are ridges, valleys, washes, rocky outcroppings, and variations in colors of soil. If the borders of all of these are treated the same, the “tracing” is meaningless. What do you get if you trace just the high ridges? What do you get if you circle the edges of only the depressions? What do you get if you do a meaningful “trace”? The evidence we have shows two halves of the face differing in texture Along with probably 100,000 hills and mesas on Earth. Prevailing winds, direction of watershed, angle of uplifting………. there are many forces that could account for such a difference. In any case, one side is essentially convex, the other concave. It is not surprising that there is a difference in the way the light reflects off in the morning. Interestingly, it was the other side that reflected light in the Viking photo. What about the other enigmatic features nearby, Jon? It appears that “enigmatic” is only in the eye of the beholder. Show me most STS USGS photos of a wilderness area on Earth, and I’ll show you several natural enigmatic features on each. Would it be reasonable to assume that if the AOC hypothesis is correct that one might find some meaningful symbolism and geometry at Cydonia? Again, look at STS USGS photos from space. Try Bryce Canyon, the Grand Canyon, The Badlands, etc. The geometry is simp <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Our Solar System must be passing through a Non Sequitur area of space. </div>

mental_avenger · May 26, 2005

As JCanuck is learning now from his discussions with SE. If Johnny is STILL arguing with sky, he hasn’t learned anything at all. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Our Solar System must be passing through a Non Sequitur area of space. </div>

mental_avenger · May 26, 2005

I hesitated to post the tracing for exactly this reason. You are in good company. There are still those who quote 20+ year old statements by Carl Sagan, which he later retracted/revised, as support for their positions. They still quote 45 year old reports as support for current conditions. Consider your self honored. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Our Solar System must be passing through a Non Sequitur area of space. </div>

telfrow · May 26, 2005

<img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

maxtheknife · May 26, 2005

MA Again, look at STS USGS photos from space. Try Bryce Canyon, the Grand Canyon, The Badlands, etc. The geometry is simply amazing. Given a half dozen photos, if you are really creative, you can probably come up with just about every mathematical relationship we know. Fine.... show me. If that's your contention, the onus is on you to prove it. Are the relationships the same as megalithic sites on Earth? Do they include a half man/half lion visage, tholus, pyramids and other anomalous features to boot? A totally unsubstantiated claim. Why didn't Plait illustrate your AWARD WINNING POINT for us? Oh, that's right....cuz he CAN'T. Maybe this would be a good starting point, Yevaud? The redundant geometry and it's counterparts on Earth? Lol, Telfrow..... You're satisfied w/ MA's defense? What a joke. I can't WAIT to hear what Jon has to say....

yevaud · May 26, 2005

Yes, it would be a good starting point. Comparing easily observed naturally-occuring features on Earth (readily available, obviously), and comparing them to the FOM. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

telfrow · May 26, 2005

I was winking in response to his post about the "honor" he thought you bestowed on me. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

telfrow · May 26, 2005

STS61A-36-0097 Volcanoes, Eritrea November 1985 Most of the volcanoes featured in this photograph lie within Eritrea, a small country along the west bank of the Red Sea that gained its independence May 24, 1993. Several individual volcanoes captured in this near-vertical photograph can be located by their lava flow patterns or by their calderas. Dubbi Volcano, near the center of the photograph, is the source of the dark radiating lava flows that extend generally northward toward the Red Sea. Because darker lava generally indicates fairly recent flows, photographs such as this one provide an excellent tool for mapping the distribution pattern and extent of the lava flow. A much smaller recent lava flow, probably emanating from a fissure, is discernible east of Dubbi. Prior to the last Dubbi eruption in 1990, two other eruptions occurred during the mid-1800s. Two sizable calderas of extinct volcanoes (Nabro and Mallahle) are visible south-southwest of Dubbi. The small area of wind streaks (wind erosion) along the coast suggests that the predominate wind direction is southeast to northwest. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

yevaud · May 26, 2005

That's a great picture too. Thanks. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

telfrow · May 26, 2005

The last post obviously shows half a face. The other side has eroded away. So here's "The Dubbi Face," mirrored: <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

Leovinus · May 26, 2005

Cow and Vulcan salute. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

telfrow · May 26, 2005

So what is it? A billie goat? No quite a lion, but still... BTW, the source for the photo is: http://earth.jsc.nasa.gov/sseop/efs/ <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

telfrow · May 26, 2005

At first, I didn't think there was anything on the other side. It looked eroded. But I decided to mirror it anyway. And look - there is a face there, and a very alien face at that. So there's a goat on one side, and an alien on the other. All on the Dubbi Volcano. Which makes them - ready? - the Dubbi Brothers. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><img src="/images/icons/blush.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

A CIVILIZATION on MARS? 1B/200M Years Ago? (Pt. 3)

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