A CIVILIZATION on MARS? 1B/200M Years Ago? (Pt. 3)

[mental_avenger]

zen says: <font color="yellow"> What about other professionals? </font><br /><br />I guess I should be careful when using the term “professional” around here. By the strict definition, Hogland would be a “professional” because he makes money off his obsession. However, the way I intended it was the common meaning, that is “legitimate professional”.<br /><br />zen says: <font color="yellow"> When Jim Calhoun and Ron Nicks weighed in on the grinding of the crinoid-looking "fossil", </font><br /><br />That says it right there. Rather than call it an object, you choose to call it a fossil. Virtually every time, the “believers” refer to as-yet-unidentified objects as if they really were the things they <i>wish</i> they were. You may notice (or not) that I use a lot of modifiers in my comments. The reason is to make clear the intent of my post. “often”, “usually”, “virtually always”, “never”, “approximately”, etc. If I (or any other open minded person) were to describe what you call a “fossil”, I would refer to it by the image number and as the object that “looks like” (insert name here).<br /><br /><br />zen says: <font color="yellow"> 30 to 40% of all Americans seems weighty to me: </font><br /><br />Anything can be “proven” with a weighted or loaded poll like the one you referenced. That poll was so incredibly and obviously biased and loaded that nothing at all can be ascertained from the results. As Max pointed out: <i>”You're suggesting that it is up to the public, the majority of who don't know the first thing about the FOM let alone the other nearby enigmas”</i> He is correct, MOST of the people, probably over 90%, don’t know anything at all about the Cydonia mesa or the “claims” of anomalies by the pseudo-scientific fringe.<br /><br />zen says: <font color="yellow"> Why, can't you read? I thought you guys were fully versed in all of Richard's "nonsense"? </font><br /><br />You got one right, finally. It IS nonsense. Jack P <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p style="margin-top:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2" color="#ff0000"><strong>Our Solar System must be passing through a Non Sequitur area of space.</strong></font></p> </div>

 

[telfrow]

So <i>you're</i> The King of Chaos... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[mental_avenger]

We are this || close to having fun. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p style="margin-top:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2" color="#ff0000"><strong>Our Solar System must be passing through a Non Sequitur area of space.</strong></font></p> </div>

 

[nazcalito]

on a lighter note...<br /><br />MJJ appeals to "Star Trek" fans...

 

[yevaud]

Yeeeesssssss.......<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[silylene old]

<font color="yellow">2. If my trace looks like a face, and Telfrow's trace looks like a face, It's a face! IT PASSED the 'is it really a face" test. Why wasn't your trace as good as Telfrow's? If you zoooomed in on say, the Mona Lisa.... how much would it look like a face? At a superficial glance, the Mona Lisa is a work of art....Up close, she's just a mess. </font><br /><br />If my trace really looks like butt-cheek imprints....It's butt-cheeks! IT PASSED the 'it is really butt-cheek imprint' test..... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[maxtheknife]

Telfrow:<font color="yellow">I used it in response to a request by Max we try and find features here on Earth that resembled the FOM.</font><br /><br />That wasn't the whole request, now was it? I remember something about, um... geometry, significant symbolic features,,,,etc....<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

 

[telfrow]

No, it wasn't, and my response to Naz was a bit of over-simplification. It probably should have read "Cydonia."<br /><br />MA, I assume, is working on the other aspects of it, since that exchange took place between you and him, although I am looking. If, and when I find anything that I think is of value, I'll post it.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[telfrow]

BTW, for the fourth (?) time:<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Now please answer my previous questions. In the enlargement I showed of the eye, where are the features creating the line you drew from Point A to Point B, Point B to Point C, Point E to Point A, and Point A to Point F?</font><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[zenonmars]

Avenger said, "However, the way I intended it was the common meaning, that is “legitimate professional”.<br /><br />And what do you have to say about professional geologist Ron Nick's ideas about the "crinoid-looking object" and the "Martian blueberries"?<br /><br />Avenger said, "That says it right there. Rather than call it an object, you choose to call it a fossil."<br /><br />No, in your own cut-and-paste you can see I used the quotes as in "fossil".<br /><br />Avenger: "Anything can be “proven” with a weighted or loaded poll like the one you referenced. That poll was so incredibly and obviously biased and loaded that nothing at all can be ascertained from the results." <br /><br />What makes this poll "loaded"? Please explain, as I am not an AOL user. A slice of America is a slice. <br />I try not to take TOO large a stock in polls myself, but how did you determine that it was "obviously biased"? If anything, it seemed almost tongue-in-cheek, biased toward the skeptical crowd.<br /><br />Avenger: " The connection isn’t just tenuous, it is non-existent."<br /><br />Perhaps in another thread. I think Naja is ready to boot me as it is, even though my premise (that NASA has been disingenuous in acknowledging the need for more and better data for EVERY Mars annomaly that suggests an ancient civilization there) is directly related to the notion that the data we now possess can neither confirm completely or deny completely the artificiality hypothesis.<br /><br />So, somewhere down the road we'll talk about the Free and Accepted Order of Scottish Right Masonry.<br />About how EVERY astronaut that went to the moon was a Mason, except Niel Armstrong. <br />About how Kennedy's father was a 32nd degree Mason, and as ambassador to Great Britian, how he spent countless hours in the Egyptian Archives of the British Museum. <br />About the man that John Kennedy hand picked to select the Apollo landing sights, an Egyptian, the number one Mason on Earth, who's connection to the bloodline <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[telfrow]

Also, you posted an image of the "relationship" between the "D & M Pyramid" and the FOM sometime back. I've cropped the "pyramid" from that photo. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[telfrow]

Since the D & M is the "anchor" for the geomtery of Cydonia, please identify, on this 2003 mosaic of the D & M, the positions you used to draw the pentagon around the "pyramid." <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Max<br />Lots to comment on, so I will do so under headings.<br /><br />FRACTAL ANALYSIS<br />Fractal image analysis is only a tool in image processing. It is not the only arbiter in a situation. Like any other algorithm (like histogram normalisation or a slice level transform) it emphasises specific aspects. It’s the interpreter’s job to assess the significance of the processing results. For example, in a study by Mar and Aronson referred to by Carlotto ( http://spsr.utsi.edu/articles/jbis1990.html ) where an image containing four vehicles was analysed fractally, the method located only three of the vehicles and generated two false alarms. This is in a contrived situation on earth, where the basic assumption that artificial objects tend to show a lower degree of self similarity than natural ones, may hold true, at least some of the time. Much greater caution must be applied when using it in an unknown situation.<br /><br />When we apply this to Cydonia we see that the results are spotty. Carlotto and Steins JBIS paper says:<br /><br />“The "face" [9] was found to have the largest fractal model fit error which implies that it is the least natural object in this area. Close-ups of the face are shown in Fig. 6. A number of objects in the "city" [11] also have large fractal model fit error. Close ups of one of those objects, the "fortress" [12] are shown in Fig. 7.<br /><br />In Figs. 4 and 5, several features which appear to be natural seem to exhibit a certain degree of non-fractal behavior. On the other hand, several other unusual objects (e.g., the "cliff" [11] and the "D&M pyramid" [9]) do not appear to be anomalous by this technique.”<br /><br />So while it is correct to say that Carlotto and Stein’s method did show a high fractal score for the Face”, it also showed as anomalous several features they considered natural and failed to detected several features they considered significant. So <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

I think this is a much better face on mars. It is more symmetrical, less eroded and clearly alien. It is from <br />http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/html/m17003/m1700355.html , in Amazonis<br /><br /><br />The image is slightly warped, suggesting there has been dextral plastic deformation of the entire region.<br /><br />The slight asymmetry is due to erosion or perhaps the aliens copied earlier art on Cydonia by blending two different species.<br /><br />The fact that this is different from the Cydonia face may point to a different species or that it is a fantasy creature (consistent with advanced art). or it could be a representation of a helmet, which raises some very interesting possibilities. Perhaps the artists were not native to Mars or that the humanoid aliens that made the face developed environment suits to cope with the loss of atmosphere, or maybe they are warrior helmets.<br /><br />Jon<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Of course, Max may be right, and the aliens may have fused two different species together in their art. In this case if we mirrow the different sides we get a glimpse into the facial physiogamy of two species. Note the extraoredinary detail - surely this must be real and not natural.<br /><br />Jon<br /><br />Left side <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Right side alien. Again, note the extraordinary attention to cranio-facial detail. A big thanks to James Kargel who drew my attention to this alien in his book "Mars: a warmer, wetter planet".<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[telfrow]

Jon:<br /><br />Would you mind commenting on what you see in the 2003 photo of the "D &M"? What kind of process are we looking at here? And what do you make of that roughly circular feature at the "peak"? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[maxtheknife]

Jon, I can't believe what I just read. Evasive and defamatory.... how quaint.<br /><br />I'm terribly busy today and I'm leaving for the beach for a long memorial day weekend. So I won't be responding today, anyway.<br /><br />Care to revise anything you wrote before I go on an all out offensive blitz when I get back? lolol<br /><br />Have a great Memorial weekend everyone.... May the TRUTH be w/ you. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[Leovinus]

While you're gone, we'll take over for you in the "find a natural formation, draw lines on it and create mirror images" department. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[telfrow]

<font color="yellow">Jon, I can't believe what I just read. Evasive and defamatory.... how quaint. </font><br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[a_lost_packet_]

<font color="yellow">Maxtheknife - Evasive and defamatory.... how quaint</font><br /><br />There is absolutely nothing evasive nor defamatory in Jon's post and I am personally insulted that you would stoop to using such an argumentative tactic in order to draw attention away from the specifics of Jon's post.<br /><br />His post was direct, to the point, filled with direct referrences and obviously meant to respond to very specific subjects that have arisen on this thread. In contrast, I have yet to read significant responses from you regarding many questions people have put to you.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Maxtheknife - Care to revise anything you wrote before I go on an all out offensive blitz when I get back? lolol </font><br /><br />You surely must be laughing at yourself, correct? Jon has no need to make a revision due to some potential fear of an "offensive blitz" from you. I am not his appointed defender; the man can, more than adequately, speak for himself. However, your attitude and self-righteous behavior must be responded to. I don't appreciate it.<br /><br />Max, Jon's post was not insulting, defamatory, heated or evasive. Either respond in kind with a well constructed post covering specific points with referrences included (as Jon has done) or let us know you are unable to do so. Don't resort to slinging self-righteous hash and empty threats just because you don't have time to write a well-constructed post. Doing such is a sign of impotence. Simply state: "I am going out of town for the weekend and will post as soon as I can. I have some interesting points I'd like to bring up." and leave it at that.<br /><br />Thank you for your well wishes. I do hope you have a safe and happy Memorial Day weekend. I just wish you wouldn't post responses like you did in regards to well-constructed posts like Jon's.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[telfrow]

Amen. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[mental_avenger]

Jon,<br />Contrary to max’s (predictable) dismissal of your excellent posts, they were NOT evasive in any way. In fact you addressed the issues head-on, and in a straightforward and relevant manner. Well done! Since you posted the actual facts, I saw nothing defamatory in your posts. But then you knew that. Thank you for your excellent and clearly well researched posts.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p style="margin-top:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2" color="#ff0000"><strong>Our Solar System must be passing through a Non Sequitur area of space.</strong></font></p> </div>

 

[a_lost_packet_]

I, too, meant to thank Jon for the work he put into his posts. I apologize for neglecting that duty in my above post.<br /><br />Thanks Jon! Excellent post.<br /><br />(I've not been much more than a lurker on these three related threads. Maybe that will change..)<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[maxtheknife]

A lecture on politeness from a guy who tried to flip us the bird in part 1?.... <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /><br /><br />I'm outta here! Look out Links....here I come!!! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />