A CIVILIZATION on MARS? 1B/200M Years Ago? (Pt. 4)

[yevaud]

No, these are files. We used to manipulate them on Sparc's, running some flavor of SunOS. And, as I said, they're huge.<br /><br />But they were expensive as hell. We were always being reminded of that fact.<br /><br />Jon, I'm certain, knows all about this sort of thing (this is an intersection point between our specialities). Jon, *knock knock* - you there? Geographer/Planetary Science (basement level) to Geologist/Planetary Scientist...Hello?<br /><br />Analyzing a simple photo is one thing, but you guys are missing a huge swath of data. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[a_lost_packet_]

Does this help?<br /><br />USGS - MDIM<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[yevaud]

That's more like it.<br /><br />Now, if one of you were willing to buy me a license for ArcView... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[a_lost_packet_]

<font color="yellow">Yevaud - Now, if one of you were willing to buy me a license for ArcView... </font><br /><br />Hmmm.<br /><br />I'll see what I can come up with. Who knows, maybe there's a "free" <cough cough /> version lying around somewhere. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[maxtheknife]

There's nothing about Cydonia in here... http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/Projects/MDIM21/<br /><br />Just find out if we can even <i>get</i> the data tapes from NASA. Maybe they have simple photo prints that we can buy. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[zenonmars]

Lost, thank-you for your very considered comments.<br /><br />Please do not confuse my response (essentially to Max's idea of obtaining O.R. {Orthographically Rectified} data, in order to reduce the <i>'margin of error'</i> in the work that those two men have done here) with any sort of negative criticism or denegration.<br /><br />I couldn't be more pleased with the Max/telfrow "data challenge", as it shows that <b>both</b> men are neither afraid of the <i>process</i> of data accumulation and verification, nor the results of that process.<br /><br /><b>Repeat:</b> it is not my intention to <b>denegrate</b> telfrow's efforts here, nor to in any way <b>derail</b> this conversation with a "smoke screen". The "Idea" (that there are <i>relevant</i> mathematics encoded in the D&M pyramid, and <i>replicated</i> between objects at Cydonia) is what is being questioned here. The Hoagland/Torun assertions of meaningful geometrically encoded <i>messages</i>, began with <b>NASA-OBTAINED O.R.DATA.</b> You suggest I question tel's work and conclusions. No. I do not. I simply assert, that in the absence of <i>much more close-up imaging</i>of Cydonia, the Hoagland/Torun model is a last vestage of the probability of artificiality at Cydonia. <br /><br /><font color="yellow">"many lines could be drawn on known, Earth, features which correspond to the measurements presented by TEM"</font> Yes!!!! Like the Pyramid of the Moon and Sun at Teotihuacan, which, in their side angles and relationships to the other pyramids along the 'Avenue of the Dead' seem to encode their latitude and longitude on the Planet! They seem to "know" where they are! <font color="yellow">"Carl Munck noticed that the Sarsen Circle at Stonehenge apparently had 30 upright stones and 30 lintels for a total of 60. Again, "our" math conventions use 360 equal segments . . . arc-degrees . . . on one complete circumference. If we multiply the 60 original Sarsen Circle stones 'times' the 360 degrees on a ci</font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

What do you find hard to understand Max? Ask and I will try harder.<br /><br />Sorry Max, Fiertek slipped past, thanks for remindng me. What do I think? His claim that the area is artificial is based on the assertion that the pyramid is symmetrical, the placement of features significant. Telfrow and I have shown that there is no symmetry to the pyramid, Telfrow that there are no significant arrangements. Fiertek is wrong.<br /><br />How much longer until you can expect a detailed response about Erjevac and Nicks? That is largely up to you - I will give it to you when you tell me its source. Consider this a simple request and a demonstration of your seriousness. Refusual to answer will be a good indicator that you are just chain yanking. Thanks to Bob I have a good idea as to its source, but it intrigues me why you refuse to supply it - or even acknowledge that Bob is correct. I don't play games, I would rather you did not either.<br /><br />Jon<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Why the obsession with orthorectification? It will show slightly more geometrically accurate representations of what we already know to be natural features. Orthorectification is an tedious process, it is only done if there is a need. If Hoagland et al. want it, they can do it themselves and present the results as downloads as demonstrations of their transparency. Why should "NASA" or anyone else do their work for them? There are lots of more interesting areas on Mars scientifically with a highrer demand on their time.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Colin098: "... they have not eyes to see ..." <br /><br />Jon, I fear you are like Oedipus at Colonus."<br /><br />Sigh. In what way am I blind Colin? Just saying that I am won't wash with me. Give evidence. Point out my errors, supply alternative interpretations - with evidence to support it. Allusions to Sophocles are no substitute for actually engaging the issues. Otherwise you are no better than Zen or Max.<br /><br />Jon<br /><br />PS This will be my last post until Saturday, as I am goping interstate on a business trip.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[telfrow]

Zen posted:<br /><br /><font color="yellow">"Here are some ideas from the TEMies that have interested me of late..."</font><br /><br /><font color="yellow">"An Enterprise Mission member who calls himself "Bones", asked us to remember that "this is why an updated and accurate map would help. I am not so sure of those rays passing tangent to the features. They might be, but it is important to work from the original type of data that RCH and Torun were working from. That should be posted <b>here also</b> (emphasis added) and not remain in an esoteric limbo. HIgh resolution."</font><br /><br />One gets the impression that not only is the issue being discussed on TEM board, but <i>images are being posted as well.</i><br /><br />I guess that means you guys need to decide if I was serious or not when I posted this on June 3, 2005 at 11:04 a.m.:<br /><br /><font color="yellow"><b>BTW, all images posted here should carry the following logo:</b></font><br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Hmm, a couple more I need to go before I fly to the tropics.<br /><br />Yavaud and everybody. You can order the raw Viking data from http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/cd-rom/web_store.cgi?category=viking<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[telfrow]

<font color="yellow">Is there something about the O.R. data, or our ability to obtain it, that you might know about and are not sharing with us?</font><br /><br />Yes, Zen. The SDC Data Dawgs are all in on the "plot" to keep the OR images away from you...and the information on how to go about getting your hands on them. Why? Because I graduated 33rd in my high school class...<i>and some of my best friends are Freemasons!!!!</i><br /><br />Give me a break. <br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[telfrow]

Packet/Yevad:<br /><br />Thanks. The kind words are deeply appreciated. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[telfrow]

<font color="yellow">For me, as much as I applaud everyone's efforts here, of late, the real work must start with the orthographically rectified data.</font><br /><br />As I stated earlier, we presented our evidence with photos from all sources, including many from TEM and Laney. I'm assuming they were OR'd or RCH wouldn't have used them for such precise measurements.<br /><br />So, again, if you believe OR'd images are going to change any of the data that has been presented here, then it is incumbent upon you to produce those images and additional data.<br /><br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

One last one before I go.<br /><br />Zen wrote :<br /><br />"As it stands, I understand why "people (such as Torun, McDaniel, Hoagland, and carlotto) who are serious about science and who diligently wish to demonstrate good, solid research and dedicate hours formalizing material...to serve the community of members who are interested in discussing this topic would view such comments from you as complete garbage" <br /><br />Because it demonstrably and repeatably wrong. As we have shown over and over again here, in this discussion. Evidence you have not enagaged, except to make snide comments. That suggests you are not able or not willing to actually think about what is presented.<br /><br />What is remarkable is the refusal of people like yourself to accept what is in front of you. To believe people like Hoagland (a demonstrable liar), McDaniel (no relevant qualifications) Carlotto (marginal qualifications and whose scientific credibility has evaporated when he refused to accept that the MOC images falsified his own predictions). Only Torun has some relevant expertise, and his adherence to an idea totally devoid of credibility casts severe doubt on his objectivity.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[najab]

Ladies and Gentlemen, kids of all ages. It's that time again - thread split!<br /><br />(Pick up the discussion: here.)